From matt.mattarn@gmail.com Wed Sep 02 11:50:27 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list llg-members); Wed, 02 Sep 2009 11:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f201.google.com ([209.85.211.201]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MiuuW-0007Ty-RV for llg-members@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 11:50:27 -0700 Received: by ywh39 with SMTP id 39so279925ywh.26 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 11:50:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=maJWqfkSwVjySKO4N5NHVV4OkPeTz8V5l6jpIqCsgBM=; b=TPvCoXNRPG7TjUfozifOl2NEdjW/rk5lG2K71NFvIJbz4d+aEYPt/BwUceAu0HJnlX jliMAYWKiJpflm7/fW/v6CBGTqiFb0KSMM40eBdcWQGecj4SRttdL7LOIER2wKDZLHRM QMijJnM4M2Kk2I4pz3+XbztpnIieRXoNxWqro= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bsDTkxQESBVc0UQsOZmrf8aF94mv1QVXyPYiOcP29Pgc5eByIqbrqjQ+HUHSiJZMSX U7Xjvq8UkyEGm52wWLUmxdJ0wX5hfbPUcTR1qyaXC2IXnzHmT7O9bKH1oCF+deqjjFOV h2f35W3Jvz74+kHUyIrrnN7qMh0xiYgM5AoHo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.17.1 with SMTP id 1mr14527828ybq.87.1251917418501; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 11:50:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <200909020942.05109.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <20090902043043.GN32444@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17560909020608t1188c8fem4773827ff5386acc@mail.gmail.com> <200909020942.05109.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 14:50:18 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: [llg-members] Re: Motion: Lojban Certification Program From: Matt Arnold To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 806 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: llg-members@lojban.org X-list: llg-members The perfect is the enemy of the good. Especially in Lojban, which tends to attract perfectionists. To say that we don't know what the language is, is like saying that because my mattress is on the floor rather than a frame, I don't have a bed. True in an academic sense, perhaps, but in usage and practice, an irrelevant sense. We do not yet have everything necessary and sufficient for our impressive goals of precision, but we have everything necessary and sufficient in practice of communication. We already have a lot that we can test on. As Arika Okrent said of Lojban in _In The Land of Invented Languages_ it is "specified to within an inch of its life". Unless I have been misinformed for a long time, BPFK concerns mostly rare and edge-case cmavo, all of which can be left to the very advanced tests, which we should not offer until we have some people who have passed level one at least. Our tests can ignore whether a test applicant uses xorlo and the dot side. All of this wiggle room leaves our certification, at least at the first couple of levels, still useful, and valid even after the BPFK finishes it's work. -Eppcott On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Wednesday 02 September 2009 09:08:11 Jorge Llambías wrote: >> I think issuing certificates for a first couple of proficiency levels >> would not be a problem at this stage. I would love for the BPFK to get >> something finished too, but I'm afraid that if we wait until that >> happens, we won't be doing anything at all for a very long time (as in >> for ever). It seems to me that without some reform in either its >> procedures or its goals, the BPFK just won't be able to produce >> anything. > > I agree. For proficiency tests, we can just avoid the details that are unclear > in the Book and waiting to be pinned down by the BPFK. For instance, the Book > has a word with a triphthong, but no list of triphthongs, so we can avoid > words such as "mliau" whose validity depends on whether triphthongs exist. > The vast majority of the language doesn't depend on such details. > > Pierre > > >