From veijo.vilva@gmail.com Tue Sep 14 11:33:58 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list llg-members); Tue, 14 Sep 2010 11:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f53.google.com ([209.85.210.53]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OvaJy-0004Sw-JM for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 11:33:57 -0700 Received: by pzk36 with SMTP id 36so3625744pzk.40 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 11:33:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=V/gbU5LQcIeH2t2KQ+xbk9/v4Q7yqHR3qK+S26pAvd8=; b=owf/9V1xAXiyiNzLT9xM8H9PXAoqYEO8cY1V3KHXLgxaxJAjEZo4c5L2F7P3Hr+aDr iNm7WnHXiU6zC0nrFr8GXZl1U44anjMZD5AoYte03oO6kM4yiRPg+PC40gYtszga4JGF Tfk2mbIzgsccHeq+I7b2pMsgkgOwRfk1cqznE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PErb0zXlaqYXdCkrt1ncmYbOtjTUUYpa5dw6DTQQCc2qEwNZiLVH2h9Af+/oCycczs Rpgf9XiseINljBhI2er2FIJ700GxeNFKjbU8bcfZ8TvxLZXgZQgANf6LWVhHk3Pjuic5 PURPlNyaoXjrD/xtkhsZ9n03nr5g9EoxUnVTw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.38.1 with SMTP id l1mr445513wal.86.1284489207551; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 11:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.177.195 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 11:33:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4C8F787E.9000101@lojban.org> References: <4C8C2009.7060606@lojban.org> <4C8F787E.9000101@lojban.org> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 21:33:27 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: [llg-members] Re: 2010 Annual Meeting - Old Business From: Veijo Vilva To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 947 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: veijo.vilva@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: llg-members@lojban.org X-list: llg-members On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > Bob LeChevalier wrote: >> >> I am now opening Old Business for discussion >> >> There are a few possible Old Business topics, but in particular, the >> Lojban Certification effort needs to be discussed.  It was a major topic of >> discussion at the last meeting, but the two identified leaders of the effort >> apparently aren't doing so any more (and Matt has explicitly removed himself >> from said leadership). >> >> Pierre briefly spoke up during reports and said that he was working on >> something, but I am lacking context to really understand what he was saying >> and where things stand. >> >> Bottom line for meeting purposes - >> Are we still interested in this as an organization? >> What are the objectives? >> What is the priority and/or desired timeline to achieve those objectives? >> Is anyone willing to assume leadership, and ideally to keep the rest of us >> informed? >> Other questions can be added to this list. >> >> Let's have a little discussion before any motions (if any are needed). > > There has been absolute silence.  Perhaps this is because of active > discussions on other lists.  Or is it that no one is interested in Lojban > Certification any longer? > > Or is nobody paying attention? I'm certainly paying attention, but Real Life has a nasty habit of intervening at the most inappropriate moments. I also wanted to get acquainted with the matter and think about it a little bit before expressing my opinion. Not knowing the present state of affairs didn't make it any easier. I think we ought to be interested. The number of people studying Lojban for various reasons is increasing, and some kind of a grading or certification system would give people clearly defined proficiency goals. I also feel that newcomers might take Lojban more seriously if we had a certification system. We ought to proceed step by step, i.e., prepare now a system for the lowest level and use it for a while to see whether it works as expected and also to have something working soon instead of promising something we cannot deliver within any reasonable time frame. Whatever the general framework, we need test material, various types of questions and task definitions for various types of tests. Collecting this material would be our objective number one. I do not know whether we have a definition for Level I or even a wider, rough consensus concerning it. If not, someone could prepare a set of model questions for polling on the Lojban List. The poll results could then be used as a rough guideline when pruning and/or classifying the collected test material. We can discuss the general framework and the feasibility of various options during the next two months, i.e., before Pierre starts working on the software. It may also be possible to do some preparatory work before that, e.g., define at least some database structures or even enter the collected test material into a master database (this database could be in a format which can be utilized in all major OS environments.) I can participate at various technical levels within my competence. > ni'o > I'm beginning to think that the email format for meetings just doesn't work. >  It gets the job done, more or less, but I get no sense that members really > feel like they are participating in a meeting, rather than merely waiting > till it is over. > > New Old Business topic (but the Lojban certification topic is still open). > > What would members think about returning to the IRC-based annual meetings we > had for a few years, for future meetings?  IRC sessions were intense and > sometimes long, often inconvenient in time for some people outside the US, > but there was a lot more active participation, and a sense that the members > were in charge of the organization.  It also allowed non-voting-members of > the community to freely participate without playing with mailing list > membership, which I think is a good thing. In this question I tend to agree with Dave. However, whatever the form of the meeting, it would probably help a lot if the members already beforehand got a list of the questions to be handled, with at least summaries of the reports and possible proposals, preferably a couple of weeks before the meeting officially starts. This has been the normal procedure in almost all "official" meetings I've attended. It doesn't guarantee anything as many or even most people do not bother to take the time to prepare for the meeting, but at least there is a fair chance that someone can express a considered opinion even concerning matters they haven't been directly involved in. This doesn't necessarily entail any appreciable amount of extra work, it is more a question of scheduling. mu'o mi'e veion --   web site: http://galactinus.net/vilva/