Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:45272)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncCMLaiI6rCBDZ3tf2BBoEbjzBVw@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1RVfwS-00044O-QS; Wed, 30 Nov 2011 00:55:02 -0800
Received: by qyk31 with SMTP id 31sf446791qyk.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Wed, 30 Nov 2011 00:54:54 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:references
         :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post
         :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe
         :content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=/ZnEDiW7t2CTqr0p8DbWJvYTZAuORaAYqaEnrG0Fflg=;
        b=nFUNVFoU2SBpWX72fyljSAhbOpC6pt0Kw78KuV5KzrStsNsKL7wJK3HHxrnBRuOxv3
         KOMl/bdsVvZ7rSqHUVRPuSZQbGxgVsmy39Yo506odY4JCQ2J6v5bVX5gJzNrBK28m3mn
         wqQxjZHMC49CZK1PwwJiGYqvtIJNLEDgo+QEc=
Received: by 10.229.222.74 with SMTP id if10mr18234qcb.4.1322643289158;
        Wed, 30 Nov 2011 00:54:49 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.224.188.82 with SMTP id cz18ls4148073qab.1.gmail; Wed, 30 Nov
 2011 00:54:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.224.31.5 with SMTP id w5mr889274qac.2.1322643288625;
        Wed, 30 Nov 2011 00:54:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.224.31.5 with SMTP id w5mr889272qac.2.1322643288614;
        Wed, 30 Nov 2011 00:54:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-qy0-f190.google.com (mail-qy0-f190.google.com [209.85.216.190])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n17si601209qco.1.2011.11.30.00.54.48
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Wed, 30 Nov 2011 00:54:48 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of janek37@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.190 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.190;
Received: by mail-qy0-f190.google.com with SMTP id 16so538398qyl.7
        for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>; Wed, 30 Nov 2011 00:54:48 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.224.216.71 with SMTP id hh7mr141691qab.15.1322643288562; Wed,
 30 Nov 2011 00:54:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: by by4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Wed, 30 Nov 2011 00:54:48
 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 00:54:48 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CA+gZtgLmsffVATYjgjf8bmds1TBT+6yWxiGc0k4mERAKqkAOKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHiXx=PW9JGf0MXQEF9KQvTGEa7Fv1Em4JZ0Gb1syuhDukZPSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <de79886b-2ed0-4307-b513-671a411cb3d2@q9g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <CA+gZtgLmsffVATYjgjf8bmds1TBT+6yWxiGc0k4mERAKqkAOKw@mail.gmail.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686) AppleWebKit/535.1 (KHTML, like
 Gecko) Ubuntu/11.04 Chromium/14.0.835.202 Chrome/14.0.835.202 Safari/535.1,gzip(gfe)
Message-ID: <b14abaa1-afb5-411c-87fc-86406636d9b1@by4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: I want an apple
From: ianek <janek37@gmail.com>
To: Lojban Beginners <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
X-Original-Sender: janek37@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of janek37@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.190 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=janek37@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

Of course, I must've been out of my mind when I wrote that. Of course
{lo plise jai se djica mi} or {mi se jai se djica lo plise} (ugh!).

On Nov 30, 1:29=A0am, Ian Johnson <blindbrav...@gmail.com> wrote:
> {jai djica} is the wrong way of doing the raising, because the x1 is not =
an
> event. The proper way of doing the raising with the x1 of djica as the x1
> of the result is unfortunately extremely clunky: {se jai se djica}.
>
> Philosophically however you're right.
>
> mu'o mi'e latros
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 5:48 PM, ianek <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think it's because in natural languages "I want an apple" is a
> > mental abbreviation. Lojban tries to deal with implicit things like
> > that. As you quoted, wanting an object is wanting to possess or do
> > something else with an object. So it's more logical definition to
> > define {djica} in one way instead of making it ambiguous. You have to
> > simple ways to overcome it: {mi jai djica lo plise}, {mi ctidji lo
> > plise}, {mi djica tu'a lo plise}, {mi djica lo nu citka lo plise} or
> > even {mi plisyctidji} :)
>
> > mu'o mi'e ianek
>
> > On Nov 29, 11:19 pm, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Someone (David Gowers?) recently (Aug. 17, 2011?) wrote:
>
> > > "You have an object in troci x2, but troci x2 is an abstraction. This=
 is
> > > the same problem as with {mi djica lo plise} -- you don't desire an
> > apple,
> > > you desire to possess an apple, or eat an apple... This is known as s=
umti
> > > raising. You need to put an abstraction in x2, then you will not be
> > > sumti-raising -- and will make sense, besides."
>
> > > I've wondered about this before. Why is wanting an object called
> > > sumti-raising? Why must the object (x2?) of {djica} be an abstraction=
? Is
> > > it simply because that's how the word was defined? If so, why was it
> > > defined that way?
>
> > > stevo
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou=
ps
> > "Lojban Beginners" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.