Received: from mail-ey0-f189.google.com ([209.85.215.189]:36250) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RcADn-0000r1-4v; Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:27:44 -0800 Received: by eaaa13 with SMTP id a13sf3572483eaa.16 for ; Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:27:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=g5NKK/ipjGOmejPEzzsRYhg7EAuVRKQxyS6Z4BIJcVU=; b=yh8VpP8i3li8nq9ZUmy/li/HNqmINo4NvreBoLMua0uxj5imXFkvT+KoIQxFVjBtDZ KOrEnE8/j4VIc+FIacx77SSGxanCUgXR4R+pcji+oVXQ8g8n8Ki9BrMZ9B+d/6dHAcaM odwHedQbc6ZBXSEPNHha6ijJ4f/SQG1FTWDSY= Received: by 10.204.132.66 with SMTP id a2mr259135bkt.16.1324189650837; Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:27:30 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.130.207 with SMTP id u15ls21411592bks.0.gmail; Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.205.124.10 with SMTP id gm10mr541710bkc.8.1324189649552; Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.205.124.10 with SMTP id gm10mr541709bkc.8.1324189649523; Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f42.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f42.google.com [209.85.215.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t6si12827552bkz.0.2011.12.17.22.27.29 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.42; Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so1938951lag.15 for ; Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:27:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.104.130 with SMTP id ge2mr12538779lab.43.1324189649057; Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.152.114.230 with HTTP; Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:27:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 23:27:29 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Curses! From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0408d3c1a5b73a04b457ed27 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d0408d3c1a5b73a04b457ed27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Anyone who says you can't express emotion in Lojban is wrong. And you, sir, are a fanza cinki. .i.e'o do jmina lo do se finti le se casnu gi'onai sisti lonu do tavla fi ti Your opinion on whether it is possible to curse in Lojban does nothing to contribute to the purpose of this conversation, i.e., to come up with Lojbanic curses. On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Lee Carlson wrote: > And therein lies the problem. *Cursing* always involves a component of > emotional manipulation, which is not a component of lojban. You can make > statements which you can determine are either valid, or invalid, and > whether or not you choose to imbue them with emotional content is entirely > up to you, not a function of the language. What to you is a logical curse? > > mi'e brais > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> No, that's not a problem, becuase "you enjoy sex for it's own sake" isn't >> cursing. In any language. >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Lee Carlson wrote: >> >>> And there is the problem. The *truth* of most cursing is about cultural >>> expectations. In our culture, calling a woman a *slut* is insulting >>> whether or not the statement is true. However saying "you enjoy sex for its >>> own sake" does not have the same *visceral* satisfaction, whether or >>> not the statement is true. >>> >>> mi'e brais >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 6:47 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>> >>>> Okay, that's utter bullshit. Whether a sentence parses has nothing to >>>> do with its truth value. The grammar doesn't care about the content. >>>> "Lojban is based on logic" != "Lojban can't be used to say false or >>>> illogical things". >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Lee Carlson wrote: >>>> >>>>> If you go to the lojban site you will find a couple of discussions on >>>>> curses, and swearing. Since the language is based on creating logically >>>>> verifiable statements, most curses simply do *not* parse, at least >>>>> not IN lojban. The closest you may come is *do bebna* (you are a >>>>> fool) though that does not fulfill the emotional catharsis of calling >>>>> somebody a "fucking retard" even if it is logically equivalent. >>>>> >>>>> mi'e brais >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Anton Golov wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 17 December 2011 16:55, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>>>> > I don't believe a word of that. Especially the part about >>>>>> "intellectual >>>>>> > exercise". >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 5:10 PM, Lee Carlson >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> This has been revisited from time-to-time and the outcome is >>>>>> always that >>>>>> >> curses and such are deeply invested in cultural context. As such a >>>>>> language >>>>>> >> that is designed to be culturally neutral does not provide curses >>>>>> outside of >>>>>> >> the cultural context of the particular user. For anyone is raised >>>>>> with >>>>>> >> lojban as their primary language, the concept of cursing, and >>>>>> expletives >>>>>> >> will likely be an intellectual exercise, rather than an emotional >>>>>> outburst. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> mi'e brais >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems more likely that if people were raised with Lojban as their >>>>>> primary language, they would develop a vocabulary of curses and >>>>>> euphemisms of their own. >>>>>> >>>>>> mi'e jesyspa >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> The World is a magical place, waiting for our senses to grow sharper. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> The World is a magical place, waiting for our senses to grow sharper. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > The World is a magical place, waiting for our senses to grow sharper. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --f46d0408d3c1a5b73a04b457ed27 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone who says you can't express emotion in Lojban is wrong. And you, = sir, are a fanza cinki. .i.e'o do jmina lo do se finti le se casnu gi&#= 39;onai sisti lonu do tavla fi ti Your opinion on whether it is possible to= curse in Lojban does nothing to contribute to the purpose of this conversa= tion, i.e., to come up with Lojbanic curses.

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Lee Carlso= n <lorddraqo@gm= ail.com> wrote:
And therein lies the problem. Cu= rsing always involves a component of emotional manipulation, which is n= ot a component of lojban. You can make statements which you can determine a= re either valid, or invalid, and whether or not you choose to imbue them wi= th emotional content is entirely up to you, not a function of the language.= What to you is a logical curse?

mi'e brais

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonu= s@gmail.com> wrote:
No, that's not a problem, becuase "you enjoy sex for it's own = sake" isn't cursing. In any language.


On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Lee Carlson <lorddraqo= @gmail.com> wrote:
And = there is the problem. The truth of most cursing is about cultural ex= pectations. In our culture, calling a woman a slut is insulting whet= her or not the statement is true. However saying "you enjoy sex for it= s own sake" does not have the same visceral satisfaction, wheth= er or not the statement is true.

mi'e brais

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 6:47 PM, Jonathan Jones <= ;eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, that's utter bullshit. Whether a sentence parses has nothing to d= o with its truth value. The grammar doesn't care about the content. &qu= ot;Lojban is based on logic" !=3D "Lojban can't be used to sa= y false or illogical things".


On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Lee Carlson= <lorddraqo@gmail.com> wrote:
If you go to the lojban site you wi= ll find a couple of discussions on curses, and swearing. Since the language= is based on creating logically verifiable statements, most curses simply d= o not parse, at least not IN lojban. The closest you may come is = do bebna (you are a fool) though that does not fulfill the emotional ca= tharsis of calling somebody a "fucking retard" even if it is logi= cally equivalent.

mi'e brais

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Anton Golov <<= a href=3D"mailto:kdesevis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kdesevis@gmail.com> wrote:
On 17 December 2011 16:55, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't believe a word of that. Especially the part about "in= tellectual
> exercise".
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 5:10 PM, Lee Carlson <lorddraqo@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This has been revisited from time-to-time and the outcome is alway= s that
>> curses and such are deeply invested in cultural context. As such a= language
>> that is designed to be culturally neutral does not provide curses = outside of
>> the cultural context of the particular user. For anyone is raised = with
>> lojban as their primary language, the concept of cursing, and expl= etives
>> will likely be an intellectual exercise, rather than an emotional = outburst.
>>
>> mi'e brais
>>

It seems more likely that if people were raised with Lojban as their<= br> primary language, they would develop a vocabulary of curses and
euphemisms of their own.

mi'e jesyspa

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.




-= -
The World is a magical place, waiting for our senses to grow sharper.=

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
The World i= s a magical place, waiting for our senses to grow sharper.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
The World i= s a magical place, waiting for our senses to grow sharper.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--f46d0408d3c1a5b73a04b457ed27--