=A0 I would suggest that a sleigh is not a sakli carce (a = slippery/slipping cart) but a [te] skiji carce.

=A0 As t= o your question:

Is it really so ? If {je} binds all arguments if selbri then how can the ph= rase
7.6) melbi je cmalu nixli bo ckule
exist ?
Are melbi2 and cmalu2 now = the same ?
As for selbri with different number of arguments they definitely don't = get extra arguments.

=A0 =A0There the= y are part of a tanru. =A0You in fact have no defined arguments at all, and= when you did have them, they would be the arguments for ckule, not those o= f melbi or cmalu.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 9:52 AM, ianek <= janek37@gmail.com> wrote= :

On 24 December 2011 14:53, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Saturday, December 24, 2011 4:16:41 PM UTC+4, ianek wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 24 Gru, 12:10, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Some notes:
>> > > * shouldn't it be {te tonga} or {se janbe}? The form= er is easier to
>> > > fit in the rhythm.
>> >
>> > I agree that in lojban the bell and the sound it emits are >> > interconnected.
>> > But just singing {janbe lo'e} is a bit strange.
>>
>> What would you achieve by {lo'e} here? I don't get it.
>
> I just mean that sound and bell meanings are in one gismu therefore in=
> lojban we can do with only one word as opposed to English.
> So {janbe lo'e} is {bell producing typical sound} as x2 of janbe i= s the
> sound so there is no need in tonga in such case.

You got it wrong. {lo'e} is a gadri, in the same sema'o as {l= o} and
{le}. {lo'e janbe} is a typical bell, while {janbe lo'e} is no more=
grammatical than {janbe le}.
I suppose you wanted to use {zu'i}. (I haven't seen it used so far)=

>> {je} and its friends are deceitful. They bind all the arguments of=
>> connected selbri (I'm not sure what happens when they have dif= ferent
>> numbers of arguments). So when you say {janbe je vitno}, it implie= s
>> that the sound of bells and the property in which they're eter= nal is
>> the same thing, and I doubt you can pass sound as a property.
>>
> Is it really so ?

OK, sorry, it's an open question, as I was told some time ago. Bu= t
it's weird to me.
http://groups.google.com/group/loj= ban-beginners/browse_thread/thread/9f7cbbf176743206

> Not considering this song what is your translation of the phrase {eter= nal
> sound produced by a bell} ?

I would translate it as {lo vitno sance be lo janbe} or {lo vitno se<= br> janbe} (or cimni instead of vitno? I don't know)

>
>> Also, I suggest changing the second half of the refrain to
>>
>> u'i se salcarce fi
>> lo pamei xirma ku
>>
>> Unless you like it less than your version, of course.
>>
>
> OK, now there are two authors. .ui.
> I'm sure there is a lot of room for improvement.
> Then in your version you can change the first {u'i} to {ni'o} = to avoid
> tautology

It's nice that you like it! {se salcarce} is quite a tongue twist= er
though, isn't it?

mu'o mi'e ianek

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