On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 4:34 AM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, December 26, 2011 11:07:40 PM UTC+4, lincro wrote:
I would suggest that= a sleigh is not a sakli carce (a slippery/slipping cart) but a [te] skiji = carce.

As to your question:
Is it really so ? If {je} binds all arguments if selbri then how can the ph= rase
7= .6) melbi je cmalu nixli bo ckule
exist ?
Are melbi2 and cmalu2 now the same ?
As for selbri with different number of arguments they definitely don't get = extra arguments.

There t= hey are part of a tanru. You in fact have no defined arguments at all= , and when you did have them, they would be the arguments for ckule, not th= ose of melbi or cmalu.

So is it possible to say {.u'i= se janbe je vitno} ?

= Certainly it's possible. It means "<amusement> A bell so= und-and-permanent thing!" (although why you introduced the idea of pe= rmanence into the song, I'm not sure. Because of "...all the way"? &n= bsp;If so, I'd suggest ".i ve'e janbe se / sance.ije nu" (or ve'e->"vi'i= " or "ze'e")

May be {se janbe je renvi} ?

Now I suggest more alternative translations.

.u'i se janbe je
vitno .ije nu
mi se sakli marce = fo
lo pamei xirma ku

= An event of YOU being a sliding-surface type of vehicle propell= ed by a single horse? Funny, you don't look it!

Oh, sorry. Let = it be

.u'i se janbe je

renvi .ije mi

se ke sakli marce fo

lo pamei xirma .ui

<= br>

.i se sakli marce
fo lo pamei xirma ku
.i m= i klama fo lo

snime foldi .iu

I think your meter isoff on this one, although your me= aning is fine

Is the mete= r off in {snime foldi .iu} ? There are 5 syllables as in the original.

Or:
.u'i lo janbe ku
sance ca lo nu
mi se sakli carce fi
lo pamei xirma ku

=

Sorry, same as before. A bell= is not a sound.

You didn't like my suggest= ion of sakli -> skiji?

I like it. I just don't know how to fit it in. .uu .u'i

= --gejyspa

=

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 = at 9:52 AM, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> = wrote:

On 24 December 2011 14:53, gleki <gleki...@gmail.com> wrote: >
> On Saturday, December 24, 2011 4:16:41 PM UTC+4, ianek wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 24 Gru, 12:10, gleki <glek...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > Some notes:
>> > > * shouldn't it be {te tonga} or {se janbe}? The former i= s easier to
>> > > fit in the rhythm.
>> >
>> > I agree that in lojban the bell and the sound it emits are >> > interconnected.
>> > But just singing {janbe lo'e} is a bit strange.
>>
>> What would you achieve by {lo'e} here? I don't get it.
>
> I just mean that sound and bell meanings are in one gismu therefore in=
> lojban we can do with only one word as opposed to English.
> So {janbe lo'e} is {bell producing typical sound} as x2 of janbe is th= e
> sound so there is no need in tonga in such case.

You got it wrong. {lo'e} is a gadri,= in the same sema'o as {lo} and
{le}. {lo'e janbe} is a typical bell, while {janbe lo'e} is no more
grammatical than {janbe le}.
I suppose you wanted to use {zu'i}. (I haven't seen it used so far)

>> {je} and its friends are deceitful. They bind all the arguments of=
>> connected selbri (I'm not sure what happens when they have differe= nt
>> numbers of arguments). So when you say {janbe je vitno}, it implie= s
>> that the sound of bells and the property in which they're eternal = is
>> the same thing, and I doubt you can pass sound as a property.
>>
> Is it really so ?

OK, sorry, it's an open question, as I was told some time ago. But it's weird to me.
http://groups.google.com/gr= oup/lojban-beginners/browse_thread/thread/9f7cbbf176743206=

> Not considering this song what is your translation of the phrase {eter= nal
> sound produced by a bell} ?

I would translate it as {lo vitno sance be lo janbe} or {lo vitno se<= br> janbe} (or cimni instead of vitno? I don't know)

>
>> Also, I suggest changing the second half of the refrain to
>>
>> u'i se salcarce fi
>> lo pamei xirma ku
>>
>> Unless you like it less than your version, of course.
>>
>
> OK, now there are two authors. .ui.
> I'm sure there is a lot of room for improvement.
> Then in your version you can change the first {u'i} to {ni'o} to avoid=
> tautology

It's nice that you like it! {se salcarce} is quite a tongue twister though, isn't it?

mu'o mi'e ianek

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V= ERSION 4

.u'i se janbe je

renvi .ije mi

se ke= sakli marce fo

lo pamei xirma .ui

se ke sakli marc= e

fo lo pamei xirma ku

.i mi klama fo lo

snime foldi .iu

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