>>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> VERSION 4 >>>> >>>> .u'i se janbe je >>>> renvi .ije mi >>>> se ke sakli marce fo >>>> lo pamei xirma .ui >>>> >>>> se ke sakli marce >>>> fo lo pamei xirma ku >>>> .i mi klama fo lo >>>> snime foldi .iu >>>> >>>> >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/5fEQ56TUOOIJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. ------=_Part_596_30930500.1327741096647 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thursday, December 29, 2011 5:00:44 PM UTC+4, lincro wrote:

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:15 AM, gleki <gl= eki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

VERSION 5
.u'i se janbe je

ranji .ije mi
se ke skiji marce fo
lo pamei xirma .ui

.i mi se sijmarce /&nbs= p;se ke skiji marce
fo lo pamei xirma ku
.i mi kla= ma fo lo

snime foldi .iu

On Wednesday, December 28, 2= 011 5:17:39 PM UTC+4, lincro wrote:

On Wed, Dec 28, 20= 11 at 12:30 AM, gleki <gleki...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:02:18 PM UTC+4, lincro wrote:

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 4:34 AM, gleki <glek...@gma= il.com> wrote:

On Monday, December 26, 2011 11:07:40 PM UTC+4, lincro wrote:
I would suggest that= a sleigh is not a sakli carce (a slippery/slipping cart) but a [te] skiji = carce.

As to your question:
Is it really so ? If {je} binds all arguments if selbri then how can the ph= rase
7.6) melbi je cmalu nixli bo ckule
exist ?
Are melbi2 and cmalu2 now the same ?
As for selbri with different number of arguments they definitely don't get = extra arguments.

There t= hey are part of a tanru. You in fact have no defined arguments at all= , and when you did have them, they would be the arguments for ckule, not th= ose of melbi or cmalu.

So is it possible to say {.u'i= se janbe je vitno} ?

= Certainly it's possible. It means "<amusement> A bell so= und-and-permanent thing!" (although why you introduced the idea of pe= rmanence into the song, I'm not sure. Because of "...all the way"? &n= bsp;If so, I'd suggest ".i ve'e janbe se / sance.ije nu" (or ve'e->"vi'i= " or "ze'e")

May be {se janbe je renv= i} ?

Survival= really implies enduring some time of hardship/countering force. If y= ou are really married to the idea of using a brivla rather than tense, as I= 've suggested, and wanting to imply simply something sustained/continuous, = try ranji.

I don't prefer = any specific ideas here. If you can fit into the rhythm please post your ve= rsions.

I'm sure we should keep several translations to please ev= erybody.

Now I suggest more alternative translations.=

.u'i se janbe je
vitno .ije nu
mi se sakli marce = fo
lo pamei xirma ku

= An event of YOU being a sliding-surface type of vehicle propell= ed by a single horse? Funny, you don't look it!

Oh, sorry= . Let it be

.u'i se janbe je
renvi .ije mi
se ke sakli marce fo
lo pamei xirma .ui

<= br>
Yes, the meaning of the second sentence works be= tter now.

.i se sakli marce
fo lo pamei xirma ku
= .i mi klama fo lo

snime foldi .iu

I think your meter isoff on this one, although your me= aning is fine

Is the meter = off in {snime foldi .iu} ? There are 5 syllables as in the original.

No, I meant in line three. Th= e song wants to stress the MA in "klama"

In the original there is

{Though the fiel= ds we go} which matches {.i mi klama fo lo}

But it doesn't match. (And FWI= W it's "O'er", not "Through", but that's neither here nor there.):

THROUGH(/OE'R) the FIELDS we GO (XxXxX) (5 syl)

i mi KLA-ma fo LO (xxXxxX) (6 syl)

Actually I perceived snow as [snou] and go as [gou].

Now, I am assuming you are t= rying to stress ".i" which is a bit unnatural, I think, for songs in lojban= . And you can certainly cheat it in as a throwaway unstressed syllabl= e at the beginning of the line, since it's followed by a stress. But even i= f you DO stress the ".i", you are trying to stick two unstressed syllables = in the space of one, which really doesn't work. (although you could be inte= nding to stress "fo", not "lo" as I have it here, in addition to the ".i". = That would be better, but if that's the case, then you should move to= the "lo" to the next line.

.

If = we can't stress single-syllable cmavo in lojban that's too bad. Many songs = require stress on the last syllable in a fragment. It wouldn't be easy to p= reserve the rhythm in such cases.

=

Or:
.u'i lo janbe ku
sance c= a lo nu
mi se sakli carce fi
lo pamei xirma ku

=

Sorry, same as before. A bell= is not a sound.

You didn't like my suggest= ion of sakli -> skiji?

I like it. I just don't = know how to fit it in. .uu .u'i

Ummm.. where's the problem? Where you = have the word "sakli", substitute in "skiji". They have the exact sam= e rhythm.

= --gejyspa

=

On Sat, Dec= 24, 2011 at 9:52 AM, ianek <jan...@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:

On 24 December 2011 14:53, gleki <gle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Saturday, December 24, 2011 4:16:41 PM UTC+4, ianek wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 24 Gru, 12:10, gleki <gle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Some notes:
>> > > * shouldn't it be {te tonga} or {se janbe}? The former i= s easier to
>> > > fit in the rhythm.
>> >
>> > I agree that in lojban the bell and the sound it emits are >> > interconnected.
>> > But just singing {janbe lo'e} is a bit strange.
>>
>> What would you achieve by {lo'e} here? I don't get it.
>
> I just mean that sound and bell meanings are in one gismu therefore in=
> lojban we can do with only one word as opposed to English.
> So {janbe lo'e} is {bell producing typical sound} as x2 of janbe is th= e
> sound so there is no need in tonga in such case.

You got it wrong. {lo'e} is a gadri, in the s= ame sema'o as {lo} and
{le}. {lo'e janbe} is a typical bell, while {janbe lo'e} is no more
grammatical than {janbe le}.
I suppose you wanted to use {zu'i}. (I haven't seen it used so far)

>> {je} and its friends are deceitful. They bind all the arguments of=
>> connected selbri (I'm not sure what happens when they have differe= nt
>> numbers of arguments). So when you say {janbe je vitno}, it implie= s
>> that the sound of bells and the property in which they're eternal = is
>> the same thing, and I doubt you can pass sound as a property.
>>
> Is it really so ?

OK, sorry, it's an open question, as I was told some time ago. But it's weird to me.
http://groups.google.com/gr= oup/lojban-beginners/browse_thread/thread/9f7cbbf176743206

> Not considering this song what is your translation of the phrase {eter= nal
> sound produced by a bell} ?

I would translate it as {lo vitno sance be lo janbe} or {lo vitno se<= br> janbe} (or cimni instead of vitno? I don't know)

>
>> Also, I suggest changing the second half of the refrain to
>>
>> u'i se salcarce fi
>> lo pamei xirma ku
>>
>> Unless you like it less than your version, of course.
>>
>
> OK, now there are two authors. .ui.
> I'm sure there is a lot of room for improvement.
> Then in your version you can change the first {u'i} to {ni'o} to avoid=
> tautology

It's nice that you like it! {se salcarce} is quite a tongue twister though, isn't it?

mu'o mi'e ianek

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.

To post to t= his group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@g= ooglegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/<= u>group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.= google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/-2aQGIkx0<= /u>g8J.

=20 To post to this group, send email to lojb...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@g= ooglegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/<= u>group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

VERSION 4

.u'i se janbe je

renvi .ije mi

se ke sakli marce fo

lo pamei xirma .ui

se ke sakli marce

fo lo pamei xirma ku

.i mi klama fo lo

snime fo= ldi .iu

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/l= ojban-beginners/-/5fEQ56TUOOIJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
------=_Part_596_30930500.1327741096647--