Received: from mail-we0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]:54099) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Rr5BL-0003xT-Uf; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:07:01 -0800 Received: by wera13 with SMTP id a13sf5156744wer.16 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:06:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-provags-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lZQWm5yWk6DQOtAah7M6t65ux4QlbyQpBRFyEzdq4PA=; b=3csWVxE76UMKAXlGe9VAMvxafNSUB7cKe1Nud9BVa9A4PA2tiYa+pup1ozhrmASvG7 1qBEPvE1MDhPCq42H0mFXseHkz+jkTOU9BnV/AukLU1hCyzcFQX/WkiF5KmRtY5vKOPS +aYQkqHBEte/HphUGqV028DmVCg1a/29dbNWY= Received: by 10.216.133.151 with SMTP id q23mr514136wei.22.1327745188993; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:06:28 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.124.11 with SMTP id me11ls21613041wib.0.canary; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.180.84.1 with SMTP id u1mr1261742wiy.2.1327745187456; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.206.152 with SMTP id l24msweo; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.185.130 with SMTP id u2mr2297214eem.6.1327745088716; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.185.130 with SMTP id u2mr2297213eem.6.1327745088695; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de. [212.227.17.9]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x18si4559739eex.1.2012.01.28.02.04.48; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 212.227.17.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of kozmikreis@lojban.org.uk) client-ip=212.227.17.9; Received: from [192.168.0.7] (82-71-48-121.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk [82.71.48.121]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mreu0) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0M5c8C-1SoHVH1BmK-00xjy3; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:04:48 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] iOS/Android app? From: kozmikreis In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:04:46 +0000 Message-Id: <4E295493-4756-49B0-80B5-8BA6AC86E133@lojban.org.uk> References: <17420344.123.1326349669489.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqcb25> <57CDF052-0498-43F6-9B02-80622D00E054@lojban.org.uk> <796CDD9E-0B54-45CA-B1FA-55A25259411E@lojban.org.uk>

<6DC8CD59-4380-46DE-8223-65FCA6B99131@lojban.org.uk>

To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:rNuxomkb4V8S2DotAFC39xYu00neG5zMuuyUh0TzX51 0GM/J3Q+/7kQST8wIqs/QjtK3kI8OsNpnOycuP+Mhd8FVCqLCr o55HQiJbaLPXHtLDBq9HNEkmvnQxbNxmfIziwB86NtTHK2Xb0d rvh28Gp6qgnsjh/mjyofZwmvqGmPpbODhIZKtGE5BH1UCkBBGO DRkM/zzPcYy5qn4RZDWZ55EBLB3KTXv95e4xqp399lmDBtcgKP 0o4egyCENfZbcTbz76I5UITzXj/x6w9QAZskmos6XEY5Akrim+ WEimnN9n40SHEyyzjvg/fxMfH4TvO0PbMa9LhhH8beZe42qo6p pFtI1miks6UJjzij3Sdx/H6U/ylBgJ51vi3FH7b8qAuyx3YkEv IcZQpB4BI8tcg== X-Original-Sender: kozmikreis@lojban.org.uk X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 212.227.17.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of kozmikreis@lojban.org.uk) smtp.mail=kozmikreis@lojban.org.uk Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / This is the point I'm trying to get across, politics and pro- vs anti-propr= ietary arguments (however valid) aside - the suggestion to use a closed for= mat _in_addition_ to the open formats is not an exercise in exclusivity. F= ar from it. I believe it's in the common interest to have the CLL availabl= e to as wide an audience as possible, and should conversion to proprietary = formats _in_addition_ to the open formats be non-detrimental to the CLL's a= vailability which clearly in this case it wouldn't be, then why not? You make a case for not purchasing a closed-format consumption device based= on its feature set. Good for you, I applaud your stance even though perso= nally I'm (currently) an Apple fan. To answer your question, no I cannot n= ame another format an iBook can be transferred to whether it is an Apple-ex= clusive format or not. As far as I know it is completely closed. I don't = see the relevance of this point though. The CLL source files are, and woul= d remain, open. kozmikreis On 28 Jan 2012, at 09:46, Daniel Brockman wrote: > dude, who=92s saying you would be forbidden from converting it into anoth= er format? >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Saturday, January 28, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >=20 >> That analogy doesn't work. Hard-copy isn't a format, is a presentation m= edium. >>=20 >> .epub is a format, as is .pdf. .html, .doc, .odf, etc. An e-reader is a = presentation medium, as is a desktop, laptop, netbook, tablet, etc. >>=20 >> And even if we were to allow that a traditional book is both a format /a= nd/ a presentation medium (which I don't), scanners have existed for years,= and are perfectly capable of being used to transfer a book's contents to a= ny kind of other medium's format, usually with no loss of information durin= g the process. >>=20 >> Is there /any/ other format to which iBooks are capable of being transfe= rred to? Can you name one format that is not only available to Apple device= s to which an iBook can be converted? >>=20 >> I'm against proprietary formats in general. I honestly don't care what "= wonderful" features the format may provide. There's is no way I'm buying a = $800 device just to be able to access, literally, /one/ thing I couldn't ot= herwise. Especially since I already have a tablet, a smartphone, a laptop, = and a desktop. >>=20 >> The point is, limiting distribution to noly those who have "X", means th= at any one who doesn't is automatically excluded. Especially for a language= , /any/ kind of exclusion of people is BAD. I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy= having such features- they may be valuable, they may not, I have no opinio= n. What I'm saying is that whether or not such a thing exists, I /won't/ ha= ve it, because of the proprietary nature of the item. I happen to be dead s= et against participating in the money-vacuum that is Apple Inc. (my Android= tablet has equivalent specs to the iPad 2 and is $500(!) cheaper), but my = stance is the same regardless of the company behind it. >>=20 >> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 1:43 AM, kozmikreis wrote: >>> Extending your line of reasoning, should we immediately cease distribut= ing hard copies of the CLL because the format isn't compatible with e-reade= rs? :-p >>>=20 >>> Yes the iBook format is only compatible with a limited selection of dev= ices, does that somehow invalidate taking advantage of the format in additi= on to the plethora of open formats the new CLL can be transformed into? =20 >>>=20 >>> kozmikreis >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 28 Jan 2012, at 00:10, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>> Not to mention the proprietary nature of the format that automatically= excludes anyone without an iPad, iPod Touch, or iPhone. >>>>=20 >>>> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 3:26 PM, kozmikreis wrote: >>>>> That is true, but is missing the point of the additional richness the= proprietary iBook format allows for such as interactive multiple-choice qu= estions, audio clips, video clips, and other learning aids that might be at= tractive in an enhanced version of the CLL :-) =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> kozmikreis >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 27 Jan 2012, at 21:32, Aaron Hawryluk wrote: >>>>>> Or, if there's an html version in existence, it could just be ported= to .epub with Calibre... >>>>>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II X. =20 >>>>>> On Jan 27, 2012 6:50 AM, "CosmicRay" wrote: >>>>>>> Those were very much my thoughts too - that porting a regularly upd= ated open source formatted book into a proprietary format was going to be a= wfully tough to keep up with. However, unlike apps, I think iBooks are stat= ic once published. Authors don't push out a v1.x update after the fact. Wit= h this in mind it's probably still worth forking the next stable CLL major = version and porting it, perhaps even embedding an errata section by use of = a web view that points back to the github repo in case of any major boo-boo= s. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> kozmikreis >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 24 Jan 2012, at 02:44, Joshua Proehl wrote: >>>>>>>> I was just looking into the idea of creating a CLL iBook as well! = =20 >>>>>>>> The problem that I see is that iBooks Author doesn't appear to pla= y very nicely with the idea of streaming data in from other files. Which me= ans that it's not really possible to script "convert the source files into = an iBook", but rather each change made to the source files would have to be= manually made to the iBook as well. Which is going to rapidly become painf= ul. Further looking into is required however, as it would be a truly incred= ible platform to use. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>>> _____________________ >>>>>>>> Instead of our drab slogging forth and back to the fishing boats, = there's a reason to life! We can lift ourselves out of ignorance, we can fi= nd ourselves as creatures of excellence and intelligence and skill. We can = be free! We can learn to fly! >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> =97 Richard Bach, 'Jonathan Livingston Seagull,' 1970. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 11:11, kozmikreis wrote: >>>>>>>>> I look forward to trying that out, please let us know when it's a= vailable. It'll be good when there's finally a Lojban-specific app in the i= Tunes Store :-) >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Regarding my conlanger meet-up app idea, I retain no rights to th= e idea should you or anyone else wants to implement it either solo or as a = collaboration. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> On a slightly related note, there's now a free iBooks Author app = in the Mac App Store for authoring rich content books for iPad consumption.= It looks ideal for creating and sharing educational textbooks. The CLL as = an iBook would be a good place to start, once the latest changes to it have= been completed - thoughts anyone? =20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> kozmikreis >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> On 22 Jan 2012, at 09:13, aryrain laubels wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I have written a Lojban Dictionary in pure Objective C, I am cur= rently waiting for approval. I finished it a week or so ago but posted it t= oday. But some other applications would be interesting. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 9:58 AM, kozmikreis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> [repost, original seems to have been lost to the aether] >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> I've got an Apple iOS Developer account and would be happy to h= ave a hand in writing a Lojban app for iOS (and Android if I can get the da= mn SDK and toolset stable), it's just I haven't thought of an app idea that= has anything better to it than those that already exist. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> My dev language of choice would probably be the JavaScript vari= ant from Appcelerator, not that it's anything amazing, but it can compile t= o multiple platforms and takes away some of the suckage of Objective C. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> One idea I had was perhaps a meet-up app for conlangers in gene= ral, whereby you tick the list of languages you speak or are learning to sp= eak and perhaps your level of proficiency, and let it run in the background= occasionally checking your location in to a central server. When someone e= lse with a matching conlang interest is nearby the phone can alert you so y= ou can meet up and say coi. Might be good for finding people to practice wi= th? >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> kozmikreis >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> On 12 Jan 2012, at 06:27, kalsa wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> coi >>>>>>>>>>>> is there any talk of making a lojbanic/lojban beginners ipod a= pp? apps like flashcardlet are good for studying words, but i was thinking = maybe a more lojban specific app would help for people who are already want= ing to learn, getting to look at it on the go, or maybe to hear spoken lojb= an, or maybe just to make it more accessible to a wider variety of people. = Just a thought. =20 >>>>>>>>>>>> co'o >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> -- =20 >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroup= s.com (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegro= ups.com). >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/gr= oup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> -- =20 >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups= .com (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups= .com). >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/gro= up/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> -- =20 >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google = Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.= com (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsu= bscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroup= s.com). >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> -- =20 >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google G= roups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.c= om (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.c= om). >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> -- =20 >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.= com). >>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- =20 >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>=20 >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- =20 >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com= (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubsc= ribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com= ). >>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/l= ojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- =20 >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com = (mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscr= ibe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.co= m). >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lo= jban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -- =20 >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>=20 >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>=20 >> -- =20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com (= mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com). >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscri= be@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/loj= ban-beginners?hl=3Den. >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscrib= e@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an-beginners?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.