>>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> VERSION 4 >>>>> >>>>> .u'i se janbe je >>>>> renvi .ije mi >>>>> se ke sakli marce fo >>>>> lo pamei xirma .ui >>>>> >>>>> se ke sakli marce >>>>> fo lo pamei xirma ku >>>>> .i mi klama fo lo >>>>> snime foldi .iu >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --000e0ce0cd5e2ae85d04b7a392fa Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at= 3:58 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 29, 2011 5:00:44 PM UTC+4, lincro wrote:

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:15 AM, gleki = <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

VERSION 5<= /span>
.u'i se janbe je=A0

ranji .ij= e mi=A0
se ke skiji marce = fo=A0
lo pamei xirma = .ui=A0=A0

.i mi se sijmarce /=A0se ke skiji marce
<= div>
fo lo pamei xirma ku
.i mi klama fo lo=A0

snime foldi .iu

On Wednesday, December 28, 2= 011 5:17:39 PM UTC+4, lincro wrote:

= On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 12:30 AM, gleki <gleki...@g= mail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:02:18 PM UTC+4, lincro wrote:

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 4:34 AM, gleki <glek...@gma= il.com> wrote:

On Monday, December 26, 2011 11:07:40 PM UTC+4, lincro wrote:
=A0 I would suggest that a = sleigh is not a sakli carce (a slippery/slipping cart) but a [te] skiji car= ce.

=A0 As to your question:
Is it really so ? If {je} binds all arguments if selbri then how can the ph= rase
7.6) melbi je cmalu nixli bo ckule<= br> exist ?
Are melbi2 and cmalu2 now the same ?
As for selbri with different number of arguments they definitely don't = get extra arguments.

=A0 =A0There the= y are part of a tanru. =A0You in fact have no defined arguments at all, and= when you did have them, they would be the arguments for ckule, not those o= f melbi or cmalu.

So is it possible to say {.u&#= 39;i se janbe je vitno} ?

<= div>=A0 Certainly it's possible. =A0It means "<amusement> A = bell sound-and-permanent thing!" (although why you introduced =A0the i= dea of permanence into the song, I'm not sure. =A0Because of "...a= ll the way"? =A0If so, I'd suggest ".i ve'e janbe se / sa= nce.ije nu" (or ve'e->"vi'i" or "ze'e&qu= ot;)

May be {se janbe je renv= i} ?
<= br>
=A0 =A0Survival really implies enduring some time of hardship= /countering force. =A0If you are really married to the idea of using a briv= la rather than tense, as I've suggested, and wanting to imply simply so= mething sustained/continuous, try ranji.=A0

=A0 =A0

I don't prefer any specific ideas here. If you can fit in= to the rhythm please post your versions.

I'm sure we should k= eep several translations to please everybody.

=A0

=A0

=A0

Now I suggest more alternative translations.=

.u'i se janbe je
vitno .ije nu
mi se sakli ma= rce fo
lo pamei xirma ku

= =A0An event of =A0YOU being a sliding-surface type of =A0vehicle propelled = by a single horse? =A0Funny, you don't look it!

Oh, sorry= . Let it be

.u'i se janbe je
renvi .ije mi
se ke sakli marce fo
lo pamei xirma .ui

<= br>
=A0 Yes, the meaning of the second =A0sentence works better n= ow.

=A0

.i se sakli marce
fo lo pamei xirma ku
= .i mi klama fo lo=A0

snime foldi .iu

=A0I think your meter isoff on this one, although your meani= ng is fine

=A0
=A0
=A0=A0
Is the meter off in {snim= e foldi .iu} ? There are 5 syllables as in the original.

=A0 No, I meant in line three. =A0The song= wants to stress the MA in "klama"
=A0

In the original there is

{Though the fie= lds we go} which matches {.i mi klama fo lo}

B= ut it doesn't match. =A0(And FWIW it's "O'er", not &q= uot;Through", but that's neither here nor there.):

=A0TH= ROUGH(/OE'R) the FIELDS we GO =A0(XxXxX) (5 syl)

=A0i mi KLA-ma fo LO (xxXxxX) (6 syl)

Actually I perceived snow as [snou] and go as = [gou].

=A0

=A0Now, I am assuming you = are trying to stress ".i" which is a bit unnatural, I think, for = songs in lojban. =A0And you can certainly cheat it in as a throwaway unstre= ssed syllable at the beginning of the line, since it's followed by a st= ress. But even if you DO stress the ".i", you are trying to stick= two unstressed syllables in the space of one, which really doesn't wor= k. (although you could be intending to stress "fo", not "lo&= quot; as I have it here, in addition to the ".i". =A0That would b= e better, but if that's the case, then you should move to the "lo&= quot; to the next line.

.

If we can't stress single-syllable cmavo in lojban that's too ba= d. Many songs require stress on the last syllable in a fragment. It wouldn&= #39;t be easy to preserve the rhythm in such cases.

=A0 I didn't say that. =A0Of course we= can, and do. =A0 In fact, I suggested that LO is stressed there. =A0I am s= aying that in particular (at least in my dialect), ".i" in partic= ular isn't usually stressed, since it's a sentence linker, and ther= efore more of a verbal hiccup than anything else. =A0Nevertheless, it could= be stressed also. =A0But regardless of whether you hear "snow" a= s having a diphthong or not, it doesn't make it two syllables. =A0THAT&= #39;S the part of the verse where we have a problem. =A0I'd really love= to hear you sing your lojban version, so I can hear how you think it shoul= d sound (because you so far haven't diagrammed it out), because it'= s really not doing it for me.

=A0 (This is where I reiterate, "trust me, I'v= e workshopped thousands of limericks over at = oedilf.com. =A0I understand things about rhyme and meter.")

<= div> =A0

=A0
=A0

Or:
.u'i lo janbe ku
san= ce ca lo nu
mi =A0se sakli carce fi
lo pamei xirma ku

=A0 Sorry, same as before. =A0A bell is not a= sound.

=A0 You didn't like my suggestion of s= akli -> skiji?

I like it. I just don= 9;t know how to fit it in. .uu .u'i=A0

Ummm.. where's the problem? =A0Wher= e you have the word "sakli", substitute in "skiji". =A0= They have the exact same rhythm.

=A0

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
= =A0

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 9:52 AM, ianek <jan.= ..@gmail.com> wrote:

On 24 December 2011 14:53, gleki <gle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Saturday, December 24, 2011 4:16:41 PM UTC+4, ianek wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 24 Gru, 12:10, gleki <gle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Some notes:
>> > > * shouldn't it be {te tonga} or {se janbe}? The form= er is easier to
>> > > fit in the rhythm.
>> >
>> > I agree that in lojban the bell and the sound it emits are >> > interconnected.
>> > But just singing {janbe lo'e} is a bit strange.
>>
>> What would you achieve by {lo'e} here? I don't get it.
>
> I just mean that sound and bell meanings are in one gismu therefore in=
> lojban we can do with only one word as opposed to English.
> So {janbe lo'e} is {bell producing typical sound} as x2 of janbe i= s the
> sound so there is no need in tonga in such case.

You got it wrong. {lo'e} is a gadri, in t= he same sema'o as {lo} and
{le}. {lo'e janbe} is a typical bell, while {janbe lo'e} is no more=
grammatical than {janbe le}.
I suppose you wanted to use {zu'i}. (I haven't seen it used so far)=

>> {je} and its friends are deceitful. They bind all the arguments of=
>> connected selbri (I'm not sure what happens when they have dif= ferent
>> numbers of arguments). So when you say {janbe je vitno}, it implie= s
>> that the sound of bells and the property in which they're eter= nal is
>> the same thing, and I doubt you can pass sound as a property.
>>
> Is it really so ?

OK, sorry, it's an open question, as I was told some time ago. Bu= t
it's weird to me.
http://groups.google.com/gr= oup/lojban-beginners/browse_threa= d/thread/9f7cbbf176743206

> Not considering this song what is your translation of the phrase {eter= nal
> sound produced by a bell} ?

I would translate it as {lo vitno sance be lo janbe} or {lo vitno se<= br> janbe} (or cimni instead of vitno? I don't know)

>
>> Also, I suggest changing the second half of the refrain to
>>
>> u'i se salcarce fi
>> lo pamei xirma ku
>>
>> Unless you like it less than your version, of course.
>>
>
> OK, now there are two authors. .ui.
> I'm sure there is a lot of room for improvement.
> Then in your version you can change the first {u'i} to {ni'o} = to avoid
> tautology

It's nice that you like it! {se salcarce} is quite a tongue twist= er
though, isn't it?

mu'o mi'e ianek

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.

= To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@g= ooglegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/<= u>group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.= google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/-2aQGIkx0g8J.

=20 To post to this group, send email to lojb...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@g= ooglegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/<= u>group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

VERSION 4

.u'i se janbe je
renvi .ije mi
se ke sakli marce fo
lo pamei xirma .ui

se ke sakli marce
fo lo pamei xirma ku
.i mi klama fo lo=A0
snime foldi= .iu

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--000e0ce0cd5e2ae85d04b7a392fa--