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Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 16:52:16 -0300
Message-ID: <CALMa68pi_RJjygMyBHi0xKBt6S4gvSDxm_xu_MQHi_-1c2y1kg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Let's do something like this for Lojban!
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
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 Content preview:  On 3 March 2012 15:30, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
    > 2012/3/3 Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>: >> I suggest
    starting with >> >> 2. mi me la .clalis. > > Why not simply {mi'e la .clalis}
    ? > BTW, {clalis} doesn't have the same sound of the orginal that is (if
   I > understood correctly) roughly equivalent to the Chinese "Chen Li" I'd
   > prefer {tcenlis} > [...] 
 
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On 3 March 2012 15:30, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2012/3/3 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>:
>> I suggest starting with
>>
>> 2. mi me la .clalis.
>
> Why not simply {mi'e la .clalis} ?
> BTW, {clalis} doesn't have the same sound of the orginal that is (if I
> understood correctly) roughly equivalent to the Chinese "Chen Li" I'd
> prefer {tcenlis}
>

The straightforward and realistic sentence would be {mi'e .clalis.},
I just considered that paralleling 2 and 3 helps understanding the
sentence structure in 3 (as 2 and 4 in the original).

This is the burden of translating an introduction to a different language.

>> 3. ta me la .djan.
> This seems a good place to assign {ko'a} -> 3. ta goi ko'a me la .djan.
>

Just consider how hard it is to figure out the sentence structure at
first sight.
Firstly, it is too long and too dissimilar from nearby sentences. Secondly,=
 the
concept of assignment is highly unexpected. To introduce it via illustrated
examples, I would dedicate a whole sequence of examples to that single
concept and employ at least one reassignment.

Furthermore, when do you expect to use {ko'a} again? The girl is pointing
all the time. And, in particular, in 16, she is talking to a guy who was ab=
sent
in 3.

>> 4. zo .djan. cmene ta
> I would use the lujvo {selme'e} -> 4. ko'a selme'e zo .djan.
> This would avoid using {se}, I agree it's too early, the nintandi
> would not know about the relationship between {selme'e} and {cmene},
> they would just guess it means "is named".
>

That is fine. But why are you avoiding the gismu?

>> Also, I recommend using the ti-series in place of the ko'a-series.
> Not sure. I would prefer introducing {ko'a} and friends.
>

It is nice to introduce {ko'a}, but, as I said, that is infeasible without
a dedicated story, or at such an early point of this one.

>> Using the latter while pointing can cause so much confusion...
>>
>> In 12 we may do
>> 12. lo prenu cu zvati tu
>
> My preference would be {vuku ko'e goi tu zvati}
>
> Using {tu} as zvati2 seems too prone to ambiguity. At least it should
> be {lovu} so that it is clear you're talking about "there yonder".
>

Wouldn't the roles of zvati1 and zvati2 be clear from 10 and 11?
Similarly, isn't it clear from the green circles that they are talking abou=
t
position?

To me, once you know {mi} or {do} you can figure out the sentence
structure right away, which in this case would show the reader the
flexibility of lojban demonstratives.

ta'o zo'o Here is an alternative:
10. vi me mi
11. va me do
12. vu prenu

mu'o
mi'e .asiz,

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