Received: from mail-we0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]:47393) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1S3yT7-0001gk-7t; Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:34:33 -0800 Received: by wera1 with SMTP id a1sf2979473wer.16 for ; Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:34:21 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhDj1Mr6BBoEacdjiw@googlegroups.com designates 10.204.131.67 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.204.131.67; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhDj1Mr6BBoEacdjiw@googlegroups.com designates 10.204.131.67 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhDj1Mr6BBoEacdjiw@googlegroups.com; dkim=pass header.i=lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhDj1Mr6BBoEacdjiw@googlegroups.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.204.131.67]) by 10.204.131.67 with SMTP id w3mr4455324bks.33.1330817661310 (num_hops = 1); Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:34:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=5w82LX8BvDgB6PIa65i4bfeuhOKbKkGl10j6IdZqLUI=; b=Guhws32RaHYli3/wrXaQyJ5W/7spkJjv+qTIQ+SUHcs20NhG8djUTljUPfT13VzDJD iyTnNIsnxFi4hujwj5L5RsJf3CwOIpw+wOVKZFfkgV7iWjtz7ihX7xc+ffjM3kYzZJst 5bbjv1Tm2a3euxRqguKRGrlvpKrtHKwEMb0+o= Received: by 10.204.131.67 with SMTP id w3mr1312004bks.33.1330817635964; Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:33:55 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.165.76 with SMTP id h12ls5436127bky.5.gmail; Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:33:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.150.90 with SMTP id x26mr1193369bkv.6.1330817634900; Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:33:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.150.90 with SMTP id x26mr1193368bkv.6.1330817634876; Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:33:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f48.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f48.google.com [209.85.215.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l17si11801418bkb.1.2012.03.03.15.33.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:33:54 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.48; Received: by mail-lpp01m010-f48.google.com with SMTP id u2so4206019lag.35 for ; Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:33:54 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 10.152.110.6 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.152.110.6; Received: from mr.google.com ([10.152.110.6]) by 10.152.110.6 with SMTP id hw6mr13809833lab.8.1330817634754 (num_hops = 1); Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:33:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.110.6 with SMTP id hw6mr11353406lab.8.1330817634675; Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:33:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.152.148.225 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Mar 2012 15:33:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <8929c895-6264-4ae8-b9ff-1d3b3094d404@gr6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> <20120302180216.GP29980@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <4F5156CA.3040104@plasmatix.com> Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 16:33:54 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Let's do something like this for Lojban! 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Content preview: On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Remo Dentato wrote: > On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Remo Dentato wrote: >> >>> 2012/3/3 Felipe Gonçalves Assis : >>> > I suggest starting with >>> > >>> > 2. mi me la .clalis. >>> >>> Why not simply {mi'e la .clalis} ? >>> >> >> No second- or third-person equivalent to mi'e exists in Lojban currently. >> > I don't see how this is relevant, {mi'e xxx} is the most common way to > introduce oneself and I think it should be thought early. > [...] Content analysis details: (2.8 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (eyeonus[at]gmail.com) -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [74.125.82.189 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FUZZY_CPILL BODY: Attempt to obfuscate words in spam 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 1.3 DRUGS_ERECTILE_OBFU Obfuscated reference to an erectile drug 2.2 DRUGS_ERECTILE Refers to an erectile drug 0.0 T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL To: misformatted and free email service --bcaec54b48d0602a4904ba5f2094 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Remo Dentato wrote: > On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote= : > >> On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Remo Dentato wrote= : >> >>> 2012/3/3 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : >>> > I suggest starting with >>> > >>> > 2. mi me la .clalis. >>> >>> Why not simply {mi'e la .clalis} ? >>> >> >> No second- or third-person equivalent to mi'e exists in Lojban currently= . >> > I don't see how this is relevant, {mi'e xxx} is the most common way to > introduce oneself and I think it should be thought early. > taught, not thought, I assume. Panel 2 is "go bekyam 'ceqlizo'." - My name is Ceqli Panel 4 is "da bekyam 'djanzo'." - His name is Jon. mi se cmene zo.clalis. ko'a se cmene zo.djan. > >> > 3. ta me la .djan. >> >>> This seems a good place to assign {ko'a} -> 3. ta goi ko'a me la .djan. >>> >> >> No, a good place to assign ko'a is in panel #2: >> > > You mean, you want to assign ko'a to clalis? She's the only one in panel = 2. > Excuse me. I meant panel 3. > > >> 3. ko'a goi la.djan >> > This doesn't mean "this is jan", it simply assigns {ko'a} to {la .djan.} > without asserting anything else. > Yes. We are saying that ko'a and the name Jon refer to the same entity, established by the context of her pointing at someone in particular. > 4.would not know about the relationship between {selme'e} and {cmene}, >> >> they would just guess it means "is named". >> >>> This would avoid using {se}, I agree it's too early, the nintandi >>> >> >> Um, except for the missing "used by namer x3", that IS what {se cmene} >> means. I don't see the problem. >> > > {selme'e} and {se cmene} are exactly the same, I'm arguing that using the > latter is more confusing for nintadni. > I would think the link between {se cmene} and {cmene} would be more readily apparent than the link between {selcme} and {cmene}. Also, there's no arguing allowed on the Beginner list. If you want to debate, post your argument to the main list. > > >> lovu what? gadri (lo) convert selbri into sumti. >> > right, I wrote that in a hurry. It's another reason I stand for using > {vuku}. > I like tu, myself. It's, you know, shorter. --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --bcaec54b48d0602a4904ba5f2094 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Remo Den= tato <rdentato@g= mail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:32 P= M, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Remo Denta= to <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
2012/3/3 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>:
> I suggest starting with
>
> 2. mi me la .clalis.

Why not simply {mi'e la .clalis} ?
No second- or third-person equivalent to mi'e exists in Lojban current= ly.
I don't see how this is rele= vant, {mi'e xxx} is the most common way to introduce oneself and I thin= k it should be thought early.

taught, not thought, I assume.

Pan= el 2 is "go bekyam 'ceqlizo'." - My name is Ceqli
Pane= l 4 is "da bekyam 'djanzo'." - His name is Jon.

mi se cmene zo.clalis.
ko'a se cmene zo.djan.

=A0
> 3. ta me la .djan.
This seems a good pl= ace to assign {ko'a} -> 3. ta goi ko'a me la .djan.

=A0No, a good place to assign ko'a is in pa= nel #2:
=A0
You mean, you want to= assign ko'a to clalis? She's the only one in panel 2.

Excuse me. I meant panel 3.


3. ko'a goi la.djan
This= doesn't mean "this is jan", it simply assigns {ko'a} to = {la .djan.} without asserting anything else.

Yes. We are saying that ko'a and the name Jon refer to the sam= e entity, established by the context of her pointing at someone in particul= ar.
=A0
4.would not know about the relationship between {selme'e} and {cmene},<= div class=3D"im">
they would just guess it means "is named".
<= div class=3D"im">
This wou= ld avoid using {se}, I agree it's too early, the nintandi

Um, except for the missing "used by namer x3&quo= t;, that IS what {se cmene} means. I don't see the problem.
<= /div>

{selme'e} and {se cmene} are exactly t= he same, I'm arguing that using the latter is more confusing for nintad= ni.

I would think the link between {se cmene}= and {cmene} would be more readily apparent than the link between {selcme} = and {cmene}.

Also, there's no arguing allowed on the Beginner li= st. If you want to debate, post your argument to the main list.
=A0


lovu what? gadri (lo) con= vert selbri into sumti.
right, I wrote that in a hurry. It's anot= her reason I stand for using=A0 {vuku}.
=
I like tu, myself. It's, you know, shorter.

--=
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa = bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am yo= ur father. :D )

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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
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