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From: ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 02:10:03 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Just having trouble putting a sentence
 together in general... Think I figured it out
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In the past, I've found the "How to use xorlo" page misleading at
best, and incorrect at worst. I recall xorxes contradicting it.

As I understand, the BPFK section on gadri is the most accurate
reference to do with {lo} and {le}:
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri

{lo broda} is defined as {zo'e noi ke'a broda}
{le broda} is defined as {zo'e noi mi ke'a do skicu lo ka ce'u broda}

So (ignoring quantifiers, since they're not relevant here) {lo broda}
refers to something that is {broda}, and {le broda} refers to
something which I describe to you as being {broda}.

So far we're in agreement, right?

Now, let's say I have a specific dog in mind: is it incorrect to refer
to it as {lo gerku}? I argue not, and I think you agree.

Since in many cases where {le} can be used, {lo} can be used just as
well, the speaker needs to make a choice between the two, and the
listener needs to infer what the speaker meant by the choice.

{le broda} is not defined to refer to "the thing which is a broda that
I have in mind", so I argue that "having a particular {broda} in mind"
is not enough of a reason to use {le} over {lo}. I think that this use
comes from taking too far the similarities of {le} to "the" and of
{lo} to "a".

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 9:56 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wro=
te:
>>
>> doi .aionys. Can you justify that prescription?
>
>
> It's not a prescription. It's not a position. It's the definition of le.
>
> le as mentioned in the following documents:
>
> jbovlaste : "non-veridical descriptor: the one(s) described as ..." {gadr=
i
> lo selbri fo le du'u sinxa ro se skicu be le cusku bei le te cusku bei la=
'e
> vo'e}
>
> CLL 6.2 : "le LE the, the one(s) described as"
> le zarci
> one-or-more-specific-things-each-of-which-I-describe-as being-a-market
> the market
>
> xorlo : "le is used for particular things you have in mind."
>>
>>
>> pe'i That's malgli, but I speak Russian fluently, and that my account
>> for my opinion.
>
>
> It certainly does, since that is the definition of le.
>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 11:52 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>> > Use {le} when you are referring to something you specifically have in
>> > mind.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 8:52 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I haven't heard of a good consensus of when to use {le}.
>> >>
>> >> My impression is that {lo} should be the default unless you have
>> >> reason stronger than specificity. *ba'e* {le} is not "the".
>> >>
>> >> I personally only use it when I want to emphasize the fact that the
>> >> sumti may not technically fit the selbri, mu'i {le cribe} to refer to
>> >> a teddy-bear; unlike pre-xorlo, however, {lo cribe} is unquestionably
>> >> still correct in that case.
>> >>
>> >> I guess I might also use it to clarify/emphasize subjectivity: {lo
>> >> xagrai cmaxi'a} might not have a clear referent, but if I say {le
>> >> xagrai cmaxi'a}, I'm clearly talking about Rainbow Dash.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Monday, March 05, 2012 21:49:33 RexScientiarum wrote:
>> >> >> If I was was talking about a specific microbe I was =A0observing I
>> >> >> could
>> >> >> use {le} right?
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, and likewise if you're using a specific microscope. Use of
>> >> > articles
>> >> > in
>> >> > Lojban is somewhat different from use of articles in English (or
>> >> > French
>> >> > or any
>> >> > other language that has articles).
>> >> >
>> >> > Pierre
>> >> > --
>> >> > .i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
>> >> > .ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
>> >> > .icu'u la ma'atman.
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> >> > Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> >> > To post to this group, send email to
>> >> > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> > For more options, visit this group at
>> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> >> Groups
>> >> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co=
m.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> >
>> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> > Groups
>> > "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com=
.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
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--=20
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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