Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f61.google.com ([209.85.215.61]:34073)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhCQ5df6BBoENR1udw@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1S4sQE-0005fE-Q7; Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:19:20 -0800
Received: by lagv3 with SMTP id v3sf4968843lag.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:19:05 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhCQ5df6BBoENR1udw@googlegroups.com designates 10.204.10.82 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.204.10.82;
Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhCQ5df6BBoENR1udw@googlegroups.com designates 10.204.10.82 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhCQ5df6BBoENR1udw@googlegroups.com; dkim=pass header.i=lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhCQ5df6BBoENR1udw@googlegroups.com
Received: from mr.google.com ([10.204.10.82])
        by 10.204.10.82 with SMTP id o18mr6943822bko.22.1331032745509 (num_hops = 1);
        Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:19:05 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:received-spf:mime-version:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=LHcdbwkZtsy+QZTxWMOVPlVaf5Wnqjou69mJaOmQHIA=;
        b=ZN1k9lUl79UIp+CLPSLE26WVIKgubx87XYUzP/4o201v1m6LXFuRHHcCyt2Wi6ljwV
         yi+KxjiY1Ma3cwltXQL1SWA35HXJCCOXaiR69gPaA9l7HcDeS+slHypPus1qoCeK4RKu
         JuOBHHbCWeP4hBYB37u2wHDauh6YvdohhKnLU=
Received: by 10.204.10.82 with SMTP id o18mr2040359bko.22.1331032720887;
        Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:18:40 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.204.42.74 with SMTP id r10ls520119bke.6.gmail; Tue, 06 Mar
 2012 03:18:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.204.156.210 with SMTP id y18mr1906149bkw.7.1331032719038;
        Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:18:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.204.156.210 with SMTP id y18mr1906147bkw.7.1331032719011;
        Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:18:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f45.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f45.google.com [209.85.215.45])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ba12si21506539bkb.2.2012.03.06.03.18.38
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:18:39 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.45;
Received: by mail-lpp01m010-f45.google.com with SMTP id e6so8432238lah.18
        for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>; Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:18:38 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 10.152.147.1 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.152.147.1;
Received: from mr.google.com ([10.152.147.1])
        by 10.152.147.1 with SMTP id tg1mr22143086lab.22.1331032718890 (num_hops = 1);
        Tue, 06 Mar 2012 03:18:38 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.152.147.1 with SMTP id tg1mr18094757lab.22.1331032718732; Tue,
 06 Mar 2012 03:18:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.152.148.225 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 03:18:38 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 04:18:38 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj0E0VLG3P797B4uPS+eXxOsnx27NkXZA2sqMzkZNt=hqA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] "Natural" was: Re: Let's do something like this
 for Lojban!
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.45 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:googlegroups-manage+300742228892+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f235177626eed04ba913461
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

--e89a8f235177626eed04ba913461
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I sincerely hope that everyone that ever says or thinks anything like the
following means natural as in "the way it feels right to do in Lojban" and
not natural as in "the way natural languages do it".

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 1:56 AM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote:

> <snip>
>
To me, the most natural way to say "I have two hands" in Lojban is "mi se
> xance lo re mei".
>

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 3:18 AM, selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com> wrote:

>  <snip>
> The ko'a version is less natural and doesn't really consitute a complete
> bridi.
>

I don't ever (consciously) take into consideration how something is done in
other languages. Because my knowledge of languages-not-English is rather
small (I took Latin and Spanish for a year each and have forgotten nearly
all of it, and am currently taking Japanese), and my knowledge of
not-U.S.-culture practically non-existent, if I were to use my knowledge of
how things are done, well, "naturally", then everything that came out of me
in Lojban would be malglico.

For example, I find it perfectly natural in the former sense to say {mi
klama ku'i lonu cpedu lonu verzga}, while in English I would most likely
say "I've come to ask if you'd babysit my kids". In the Lojban, quite a lot
is left to context- an ability of Lojban I am extremely fond of. {mi neltce
lonu pilno lo jbobau ckaji be loka na cusku zo'e}

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.


--e89a8f235177626eed04ba913461
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I sincerely hope that everyone that ever says or thinks anything like the f=
ollowing means natural as in &quot;the way it feels right to do in Lojban&q=
uot; and not natural as in &quot;the way natural languages do it&quot;.<br>


<br>On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 1:56 AM, ianek <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:janek37@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">janek37@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div>&lt;snip&gt; <br></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div>To me, the most natural way to say &quot;I have two ha=
nds&quot; in Lojban is &quot;mi se xance lo re mei&quot;.<br>


</div></blockquote><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 3:=
18 AM, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m3o@plasmatix.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">m3o@plasmatix.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">




 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    &lt;snip&gt;<br>
    The ko&#39;a version is less natural and doesn&#39;t really consitute a=
 complete bridi.<br></div></blockquote><div><br>I don&#39;t ever (conscious=
ly) take into consideration how something is done in other languages. Becau=
se my knowledge of languages-not-English is rather small (I took Latin and =
Spanish for a year each and have forgotten nearly all of it, and am current=
ly taking Japanese), and my knowledge of not-U.S.-culture practically non-e=
xistent, if I were to use my knowledge of how things are done, well, &quot;=
naturally&quot;, then everything that came out of me in Lojban would be mal=
glico.<br>
<br>For example, I find it perfectly natural in the former sense to say {mi=
 klama ku&#39;i lonu cpedu lonu verzga}, while in English I would most like=
ly say &quot;I&#39;ve come to ask if you&#39;d babysit my kids&quot;. In th=
e Lojban, quite a lot is left to context- an ability of Lojban I am extreme=
ly fond of. {mi neltce lonu pilno lo jbobau ckaji be loka na cusku zo&#39;e=
}<br>
</div></div><br>-- <br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa =
bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>

(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



--e89a8f235177626eed04ba913461--