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From: ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:30:42 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Major flaw in Lojban ! (was:Pivotal sentences
 in Pandunia. How to express them in Lojban ?)
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I disagree that this is a major flaw; this is simply one grammatical
feature lojban lacks (I dont know of any language besides Pandunia
that has it generally; I don't believe that your English example
generalizes).

Also, Pandunia omits unnecessary pronouns, so "I ask you to greet me"
is frequently said "peti tshau mi", which is exactly analogous to
lojban's {cpedu lo nu rinsa mi}.

I remember another grammatical feature I miss in lojban: the inability
to put a selbri at the end of a bridi as an adverb: e.g. "I go from my
house to the store prouldly"
{mi jgira klama lo zdani lo zaisle}; {mi klama lo zdani lo zaisle fi'o
se jgira} is the closest equivalent, but it feels awkward and
unnatural.

Neither of these is a big cost to expressivity pe'i.

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:15 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course I know that Pandunia lacks other nice features.
> I want Lojban to be the best in every feature, not most features. It's no=
t a
> competition.
> The victory over other logical projects must be total.
>
> The question is similar to recent discussion about {kakne} - x1 is capabl=
e
> of {x2} which accomplishes the requirement of pivotal sentences whereas m=
any
> other gismu do not.
> {mi cpedu lonu do rinsa [ko'a,zo'e,lo prenu, etc.]} is not the answer. It=
's
> too ambiguous. Where is x3 ? Who are you asking this for ?
> It's like {mi kakne lo nu do rinsa mi} - an impractical solution that cou=
ld
> be=A0logically possible.
> Compare with {djica} - {mi djica=A0lo nu do rinsa mi} - that *is* within =
the
> baseline.
>
> The major flaw in Lojban is that it cannot compactly express "I ask you t=
o
> greet me". You have to say
> {mi cpedu [fe] lo nu do rinsa [ku] [fi] do}
> And here is the lack of compactness (two valsi {do} instead of one).
> Even English (not Pandunia !) is better.=A0"I ask you to greet me" -
> absolutely no need to repeat the word "you".
>
>
> SO THE MAJOR FLAW OF LOJBAN IS THE LACK OF CONNECTION BETWEEN SUMTI in ma=
ny
> gismu.
> I can see only one solution.
> {mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa} therefore completely ignoring x2 (the act of
> ignoring at least won't break the baseline).
> But I'm not sure whether it preserves the needed meaning.
>
> On Friday, March 16, 2012 10:31:11 AM UTC+4, Oleksii Melnyk wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 15 March 2012 18:10, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> So the second "sumti" ti in mi peti ti=A0becomes the first "sumti" of t=
he
>>> next construction "ti tshau ta".
>>> I wonder whether it's possible to do so in Lojban. May {be} or {.i ri}
>>> can do the trick
>>
>>
>> >Pandunia ... lacks other complex grammatical structures ...
>>
>> while lojban mandates them. So, in that example, it's hard to ?factor? t=
he
>> sumti out of the abstraction. In some specific cases you can get close
>> enough with:
>>
>> 1. common set of sumti with 2 =ABbridi tails=BB - with reversed order, c=
ommon
>> comes first
>> 2. NOI, with the hardcoded semantic
>>
>> --
>> mi'e lex mu'o
>>
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--=20
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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