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From: ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:42:29 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Major flaw in Lojban ! (was:Pivotal sentences
 in Pandunia. How to express them in Lojban ?)
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I would interpret {mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa mi} as "I ask [something]
of you, who greets me." This is not the only interpretation (depending
on context), but the {poi} functions as a description, not the
request.

I respect you too much to lie to you zo'o ru'e, so I can't tell you
that your suggestion is correct.

What I can tell you is that I would translate "I ask you to greet me"
(If I wanted to mention the pronouns) as {mi cpedu lo nu do rinsa mi},
which leaves the person being asked implicit, but taken in the present
tense, I can't easily think of a {te cpedu} that isn't {do}.

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 10:56 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, March 16, 2012 4:32:38 PM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
>>
>> Indeed, it's not a competition. Therefore there are neither victors nor
>> losers. And Lojban is *so* imperfect, in *so* many ways.
>
>
> Oh please don't tell me that ! Tell me that I'm right in my suggeston for
> {mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa mi}.
> I hope there are no traditions in lojban for expressing this or that. And
> therefore may be we can invent something that will sound nice and laconic
> but still within the baseline.
>
> Or tell me that may be we should try creating another bunch of gismu, may=
 be
> a hundred or so (zo'o) that will work better.
>
>>
>> But it's still fun to learn and use.
>>
>>
>> stevo
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:15 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>>>
>>> Of course I know that Pandunia lacks other nice features.
>>> I want Lojban to be the best in every feature, not most features. It's
>>> not a competition.
>>> The victory over other logical projects must be total.
>>>
>>> The question is similar to recent discussion about {kakne} - x1 is
>>> capable of {x2} which accomplishes the requirement of pivotal sentences
>>> whereas many other gismu do not.
>>> {mi cpedu lonu do rinsa [ko'a,zo'e,lo prenu, etc.]} is not the answer.
>>> It's too ambiguous. Where is x3 ? Who are you asking this for ?
>>> It's like {mi kakne lo nu do rinsa mi} - an impractical solution that
>>> could be=A0logically possible.
>>> Compare with {djica} - {mi djica=A0lo nu do rinsa mi} - that *is* withi=
n
>>> the baseline.
>>>
>>> The major flaw in Lojban is that it cannot compactly express "I ask you
>>> to greet me". You have to say
>>> {mi cpedu [fe] lo nu do rinsa [ku] [fi] do}
>>> And here is the lack of compactness (two valsi {do} instead of one).
>>> Even English (not Pandunia !) is better.=A0"I ask you to greet me" -
>>> absolutely no need to repeat the word "you".
>>>
>>>
>>> SO THE MAJOR FLAW OF LOJBAN IS THE LACK OF CONNECTION BETWEEN SUMTI in
>>> many gismu.
>>> I can see only one solution.
>>> {mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa} therefore completely ignoring x2 (the act of
>>> ignoring at least won't break the baseline).
>>> But I'm not sure whether it preserves the needed meaning.
>>>
>>> On Friday, March 16, 2012 10:31:11 AM UTC+4, Oleksii Melnyk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 15 March 2012 18:10, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> So the second "sumti" ti in mi peti ti=A0becomes the first "sumti" of=
 the
>>>>> next construction "ti tshau ta".
>>>>> I wonder whether it's possible to do so in Lojban. May {be} or {.i ri=
}
>>>>> can do the trick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >Pandunia ... lacks other complex grammatical structures ...
>>>>
>>>> while lojban mandates them. So, in that example, it's hard to ?factor?
>>>> the sumti out of the abstraction. In some specific cases you can get c=
lose
>>>> enough with:
>>>>
>>>> 1. common set of sumti with 2 =ABbridi tails=BB - with reversed order,
>>>> common comes first
>>>> 2. NOI, with the hardcoded semantic
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> mi'e lex mu'o
>>>>
>>> --
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ps
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>>
>>
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--=20
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