Received: from mail-iy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.210.189]:53915) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1S8bga-0000b0-2F; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:15:33 -0700 Received: by iahk25 with SMTP id k25sf7249739iah.16 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:15:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Ro0DjygWq9L8YXfXrGFGl3B021S8ZQ0HTrqK1vWn6Ow=; b=aa0+knJj1maZUlwpfVLT36gOnFDHR6y1Ms0EuduvEYATcfPyvhRVSv6lgkQmQO5SSN sYCn1twiq9iw8C7TNkLvYAf/QG7vdzM91pPETVvuemGEwI+Pf8UKC8CgnmG+TAepYHIE GL652rM/A4f8cEaR849S3Fv2CC+G6gknups2Q= Received: by 10.52.177.5 with SMTP id cm5mr352828vdc.16.1331921702131; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:15:02 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.218.147 with SMTP id hq19ls2431350vcb.4.gmail; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.95.229 with SMTP id dn5mr353662vdb.8.1331921700662; Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:15:00 -0700 (PDT) From: gleki To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-ID: <7249705.98.1331921700313.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vblb5> In-Reply-To: <21590616.1383.1331920334900.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynil17> References: <26361784.259.1331827845548.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynjw14> <2343119.814.1331896532433.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynkz21> <32227855.55.1331909777553.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yncc18> <14627135.208.1331917668355.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbas10> <21590616.1383.1331920334900.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynil17> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Major flaw in Lojban ! 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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: On Friday, March 16, 2012 9:52:14 PM UTC+4, Lindar wrote: > > OK. At least I can express "I want to sleep" as "mi djica lo nu ri sipna" >> and I have to memorise just {lonuri}, a lengthy but practical string. > > > There's an implicit {ce'u} there. You don't need {ri} because it's already > assumed. > {mi djica lo nu sipna} is {mi djica lo nu ce'u sipna} is {mi djica lo nu > mi sipna} is {mi djica lo nu mi sipna vau kei ku vau}. > > [...] Content analysis details: (0.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (gleki.is.my.name[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.3 PLING_QUERY Subject has exclamation mark and question mark 0.0 T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL To: misformatted and free email service ------=_Part_97_33529726.1331921700311 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Friday, March 16, 2012 9:52:14 PM UTC+4, Lindar wrote: > > OK. At least I can express "I want to sleep" as "mi djica lo nu ri sipna" >> and I have to memorise just {lonuri}, a lengthy but practical string. > > > There's an implicit {ce'u} there. You don't need {ri} because it's already > assumed. > {mi djica lo nu sipna} is {mi djica lo nu ce'u sipna} is {mi djica lo nu > mi sipna} is {mi djica lo nu mi sipna vau kei ku vau}. > > Don't you think that {mi djica lo nu sipna} is too ambiguous ? Don't you think that it can include such cases as {mi djica lo nu ro sipna} {mi djica lo nu do sipna} {mi djica lo nu mi sipna} {mi djica lo nu mi'o sipna} ? > What I can tell you is that I would translate "I ask you to greet me" >>> (If I wanted to mention the pronouns) as {mi cpedu lo nu do rinsa mi}, >>> which leaves the person being asked implicit, but taken in the present >>> tense, I can't easily think of a {te cpedu} that isn't {do}. >>> >> ...or {mi cpedu lo nu rinsa kei do}. > {ko rinsa se va'u mi} > {ko rinsa fi'o se pluka mi} > > The problem is that you're being Francocentric about your phrasing. Also, > whatever language that is in the first post just looks like coded English. > That's why you can get an English sentence to fit so nicely. If all you > want is to be able to easily transliterate natlang phrases, just speak > Esperanto. I'll stick with a few extra words instead of having to rely on > tone and timing. > > Also, {mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa mi} is "I ask of You Who Greets Me" kinda > like it's a title. {poi} is probably not what you want and that's probably > not what you want to say, even if you used {noi}, because it's not even > implicit what you're asking. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/llUg2bHRFCkJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. ------=_Part_97_33529726.1331921700311 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday, March 16, 2012 9:52:14 PM UTC+4, Lindar wrote:
OK. At least I can express "I want to sleep" as "mi djica lo nu = ri sipna" and I have to memorise just {lonuri}, a lengthy but practical str= ing.

There's an implicit {ce'u} there. You = don't need {ri} because it's already assumed.
{mi djica lo nu sip= na} is {mi djica lo nu ce'u sipna} is {mi djica lo nu mi sipna} is {mi djic= a lo nu mi sipna vau kei ku vau}.
 
<= br>
Don't you think that {mi djica lo nu sipna} is too = ambiguous ? Don't you think that it can include such cases as {mi djic= a lo nu ro sipna} {mi djica lo nu do sipna} {mi djica lo nu mi si= pna} {mi djica lo nu mi'o sipna} ?

What I can tell you is that I would transl= ate "I ask you to greet me"
(If I wanted to mention the pronouns) as {mi= cpedu lo nu do rinsa mi},
which leaves the person being asked implicit,= but taken in the present
tense, I can't easily think of a {te cpedu} th= at isn't {do}.

...or {mi cpedu lo n= u rinsa kei do}.
{ko rinsa se va'u mi}
{ko rinsa fi'o s= e pluka mi}

The problem is that you're being Franc= ocentric about your phrasing. Also, whatever language that is in the f= irst post just looks like coded English. That's why you can get an English = sentence to fit so nicely. If all you want is to be able to easily translit= erate natlang phrases, just speak Esperanto. I'll stick with a few extra wo= rds instead of having to rely on tone and timing.

= Also, {mi cpedu fi do poi rinsa mi} is "I ask of You Who Greets Me" kinda l= ike it's a title. {poi} is probably not what you want and that's probably n= ot what you want to say, even if you used {noi}, because it's not even impl= icit what you're asking.

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