Received: from mail-qa0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]:39391) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SBMaC-0005NC-AY; Sat, 24 Mar 2012 01:44:21 -0700 Received: by qadz32 with SMTP id z32sf1454671qad.16 for ; Sat, 24 Mar 2012 01:44:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=+XdjuteoM9t4KvjkdAmqeXauMZ2Y2subp2PvgzmfATs=; b=mxXFgeFPYfpf6L6THgiUCGafKkEA4zTa1/u1NzazLCn2aD8s8ObUqSvM+P1Nj2BDkN NlejP+v2CztHudjljGjPr+lGgeLpk7d7dmqvKfel7DZYxXZ9s06tcrw0NAH6YVKeWF1s txpnTiwwr+nkJziNm/L16khprJGE+YFOSJ/0Y= Received: by 10.52.71.18 with SMTP id q18mr1792569vdu.14.1332578629016; Sat, 24 Mar 2012 01:43:49 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.240.204 with SMTP id lb12ls610707vcb.0.gmail; Sat, 24 Mar 2012 01:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.94.100 with SMTP id db4mr1791684vdb.10.1332578627822; Sat, 24 Mar 2012 01:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 01:43:47 -0700 (PDT) From: gleki To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-ID: <1021135.2.1332578627449.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yner4> In-Reply-To: References: <24143939.1398.1332138901295.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynnk21> <33103594.462.1332425745262.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynbu11> <201203221610.14539.phma@phma.optus.nu> <17917285.791.1332482143245.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbgx21> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Is it possible to completely get rid of {ku} in speech ? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1_20727912.1332578627431" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_1_20727912.1332578627431 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:00:38 AM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 1:55 AM, wrote: > > On Friday, March 23, 2012 12:10:13 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote: > >> > >> On Thursday, March 22, 2012 10:15:45 gleki wrote: > >> > https://sites.google.com/site/=E2=80=8Bcernidirgo/menli-bangu-put-= =E2=80=8Bkoteenka > >> > > >> > The Kitten's Way is still in progress. > >> > >> I don't know Russian well enough to translate into it, but I can read = it > >> fairly well. > >> > >> In the Cyrillic alphabet for Lojban, =D1=8A, not =D1=8B, is used for y= . =D0=AA is not > >> used as > >> a vowel in Russian, but it is in Bulgarian, and as I understand it (I > >> don't > >> speak Bulgarian), it's closer to Lojban y than =D1=8B is. > > > > We don't teach Cyrillic writing system there. It's just transcription. > > Unstressed "=D1=8B" sounds like "schwa". It's just like we all hear it= .=20 > Although > > we are not experts. > > > >> > mi dunda lo plise ku fa'a do - =D1=8F =D0=B4=D0=B0=D1=8E =D1=8F=D0= =B1=D0=BB=D0=BE=D0=BA=D0=BE =D1=82=D0=B5=D0=B1=D0=B5. > >> I'd say "mi dunda lo plise ku do". "fa'a" is not a proper preposition= =20 > but > >> a > >> spatial tense marker (though all tense markers can be used as > >> prepositions) > >> and doesn't denote motion unless preceded by "mo'i". > > > > Do you really think that {mi dunda ti fa'a do} can't have any meaning ? > > It has meaning; it's just the wrong meaning. It means that the act of > giving is taking place in your direction, whatever that means. > That's true. It needs changing. =20 > > It's just what the Kitten's Way is all about. > > We replace x3 with sumtcita in first lessons. Only then we learn about = x3 > > It's just the policy of this textbook. > > > >> > zo'e pe do - =D1=87=D1=82=D0=BE-=D1=82=D0=BE =D0=BE =D1=82=D0=B5=D0= =B1=D0=B5 > >> "pe" isn't a preposition. It can be used to attach a prepositional=20 > phrase > >> to a > >> sumti (e.g. "le renro pe pa'o lo canko" means "the thrower who is=20 > through > >> a > >> window", which is different from "le renro be pa'o lo canko" which mea= ns > >> "the > >> thrower through a window", i.e. he throws something through a window). > >> "pe" is > >> in the same selma'o as "goi", which does something quite > >> un-preposition-like. > >> > >> > xu do cusku bau la .lojban. ? (=D0=A2=D1=8B =D0=B3=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=BE= =D1=80=D0=B8=D1=88=D1=8C =D0=BD=D0=B0 =D0=9B=D0=BE=D0=B6=D0=B1=D0=B0=D0=BD= =D0=B5 ?) > >> For "Do you speak Lojban?" I'd say "xu do se bangu la lojban". Is "=D0= =A2=D1=8B > >> =D0=B3=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=BE=D1=80=D0=B8=D1=88=D1=8C > >> =D0=BF=D0=BE-=D0=BB=D0=BE=D0=B6=D0=B1=D0=B0=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8" p= roper Russian? > > > > It is. ki'e. We need to find another example for {bau}. > > {xu do cusku bau la .lojban.} does have a reasonable meaning: "Are you > speaking in lojban?" (Although I'd probably move the {xu} to follow > the {bau}) > I think Russian is ambiguous as to whether that or "Do you speak > lojban?" is being asked. > > > > >> > >> Btw, what about "=D0=B1=D1=83=D1=80=D1=83=D1=88=D0=B0=D1=81=D0=BA=D0= =B8=D0=B9 =D1=8F=D0=B7=D1=8B=D0=BA"? (language > >> isolate spoken in Hunza) You may want to point out that "xu", like "= =D0=BB=D0=B8", > >> can > >> follow the word being questioned. > >> > >> > ti me ma (=D0=AD=D1=82=D0=BE =D1=87=D1=82=D0=BE ?) > >> > plise (=D1=8F=D0=B1=D0=BB=D0=BE=D0=BA=D0=BE) > >> That has to be either "ti me ma? =E2=80=94 lo plise" or "ti mo? =E2=80= =94 plise". "=D0=A7=D1=82=D0=BE=20 > =D0=BE=D0=BD > >> =D0=B4=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=B0=D0=B5=D1=82" is "mo", not "me ma". > > > > Oh, indeed. > > > >> > >> Enough comments for now. Keep up the good work! > >> > >> Pierre > >> -- > >> lo ponse be lo mruli po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko > > > > > > ki'esai doi .pier. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/=E2=80=8Bmsg/lojban-beginners/-/=E2=80=8Beu= 92ChlWNT0J > . > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.=E2= =80=8Bcom > . > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=E2=80=8Bgooglegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/=E2=80=8Bgroup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den > . > > --=20 > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban-beginners/-/WPwHoQLudY0J. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_1_20727912.1332578627431 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:00:38 AM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 1:55 AM, &nbs= p;<arcady= .balandin@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, March 23, 2012 12:10:= 13 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>>
>> On Thursday, March= 22, 2012 10:15:45 gleki wrote:
>> > https= ://sites.google.com/site/=E2=80=8Bcernidirgo/menli-bangu-put-=E2=80=8Bkotee= nka
>> >
>> > The Kitten's Way is still in prog= ress.
>>
>> I don't know Russian well enough to translate= into it, but I can read it
>> fairly well.
>>
>>= ; In the Cyrillic alphabet for Lojban, =D1=8A, not =D1=8B, is used for y. = =D0=AA is not
>> used as
>> a vowel in Russian, but it is= in Bulgarian, and as I understand it (I
>> don't
>> spea= k Bulgarian), it's closer to Lojban y than =D1=8B is.
>
> We do= n't teach Cyrillic writing system there. It's just transcription.
> U= nstressed "=D1=8B" sounds like "schwa". It's just like we  all hear it= . Although
> we are not experts.
>
>> > mi dunda lo= plise ku fa'a do - =D1=8F =D0=B4=D0=B0=D1=8E =D1=8F=D0=B1=D0=BB=D0=BE=D0= =BA=D0=BE =D1=82=D0=B5=D0=B1=D0=B5.
>> I'd say "mi dunda lo plise = ku do". "fa'a" is not a proper preposition but
>> a
>> sp= atial tense marker (though all tense markers can be used as
>> pre= positions)
>> and doesn't denote motion unless preceded by "mo'i".=
>
> Do you really think that {mi dunda ti fa'a do} can't have = any meaning ?

It has meaning; it's just the wrong meaning. It means that = the act of
giving is taking place in your direction, whatever that means= .

That's true. It needs changing.
 

> It's just what the K= itten's Way is all about.
> We replace x3 with sumtcita in first less= ons. Only then we learn about x3
> It's just the policy of this textb= ook.
>
>> > zo'e pe do - =D1=87=D1=82=D0=BE-=D1=82=D0=BE = =D0=BE =D1=82=D0=B5=D0=B1=D0=B5
>> "pe" isn't a preposition. It ca= n be used to attach a prepositional phrase
>> to a
>> sum= ti (e.g. "le renro pe pa'o lo canko" means "the thrower who is through
&= gt;> a
>> window", which is different from "le renro be pa'o lo= canko" which means
>> "the
>> thrower through a window",= i.e. he throws something through a window).
>> "pe" is
>>= ; in the same selma'o as "goi", which does something quite
>> un-p= reposition-like.
>>
>> > xu do cusku bau la .lojban. ?= (=D0=A2=D1=8B =D0=B3=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=BE=D1=80=D0=B8=D1=88=D1=8C =D0=BD=D0= =B0 =D0=9B=D0=BE=D0=B6=D0=B1=D0=B0=D0=BD=D0=B5 ?)
>> For "Do you s= peak Lojban?" I'd say "xu do se bangu la lojban". Is "=D0=A2=D1=8B
>&= gt; =D0=B3=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=BE=D1=80=D0=B8=D1=88=D1=8C
>> =D0=BF=D0= =BE-=D0=BB=D0=BE=D0=B6=D0=B1=D0=B0=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8" proper Russian?=
>
> It is. ki'e. We need to find another example for {bau}.

{xu do cusku bau la .lojban.} does have a reasonable meaning: "Are you<= br>speaking in lojban?" (Although I'd probably move the {xu} to follow
t= he {bau})
I think Russian is ambiguous as to whether that or "Do you spe= ak
lojban?" is being asked.

>
>>
>> Btw, what= about "=D0=B1=D1=83=D1=80=D1=83=D1=88=D0=B0=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=B9 =D1=8F= =D0=B7=D1=8B=D0=BA"? (language
>> isolate spoken in Hunza) You may= want to point out that "xu", like "=D0=BB=D0=B8",
>> can
>&= gt; follow the word being questioned.
>>
>> > ti me ma= (=D0=AD=D1=82=D0=BE =D1=87=D1=82=D0=BE ?)
>> > plise (=D1=8F= =D0=B1=D0=BB=D0=BE=D0=BA=D0=BE)
>> That has to be either "ti me ma= ? =E2=80=94 lo plise" or "ti mo? =E2=80=94 plise". "=D0=A7=D1=82=D0=BE =D0= =BE=D0=BD
>> =D0=B4=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=B0=D0=B5=D1=82" is "mo", not "m= e ma".
>
> Oh, indeed.
>
>>
>> Enough c= omments for now. Keep up the good work!
>>
>> Pierre
&= gt;> --
>> lo ponse be lo mruli po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dink= o
>
>
> ki'esai  doi .pier.
>
> --
&g= t; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To view this discussion on the = web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/=E2=80=8Bm= sg/lojban-beginners/-/=E2=80=8Beu92ChlWNT0J.
>
> To post to= this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.=E2=80=8Bcom.
&= gt; To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban-= beginners+unsubscribe@=E2=80=8Bgooglegroups.com.
> For more optio= ns, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/=E2=80= =8Bgroup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
mu'o mi'e .arpis= .

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/l= ojban-beginners/-/WPwHoQLudY0J.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
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