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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Message-ID: <30880759.2.1334414274058.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbcgs4>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] irrealis attitudinals (~propositional indicators)
 in subordinate clauses
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We've an intersting discussion with la filipos. 
http://tatoeba.org/rus/sentences/show/1524503#comments 

Here is a copy of it.
The sentence is "ko'a pu cusku lo se du'u ko'a ca .ei cliva".

gleki:

doi .filipos.

don't you think that attitudinals like {.ei} can refer to the speaker only.
In relative clauses it's not possible to use {.ei} refering to anyone 
described.

What is your opinion about just {bilga} or at least careful usage {of 
.eida'oi}

Attitudinals express true emotions which you can never be sure about other 
people. 


 filipos:

doi gleki

I think irrealis attitudinals (~propositional indicators) in subordinate 
clauses should be considered part of them. For one thing, giving short 
scope to attitudinals in general means they providing equal expressive 
power to main bridi and abstraction bridi. More importantly, for the 
particular case of irrealis, I see no general useful alternative 
interpretation.

So,
{ko'a ca .ei cliva} "ko'a should leave now"
{lo du'u ko'a ca .ei cliva} "The proposition <koha should leave now>"
{lo se du'u ko'a ca .ei cliva} "A sentence expressing that koha should 
leave now"

You could use {bilga} in an alternative translation. {da'oi} does not help 
if you think that {.ei} has long scope.

Irrealis attitudinals are a fundamental part of what is being stated, not a 
side emotional expression like {.ui}. 

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<div>We've an intersting discussion with la filipos.&nbsp;<br></div><div><a=
 href=3D"http://tatoeba.org/rus/sentences/show/1524503#comments">http://tat=
oeba.org/rus/sentences/show/1524503#comments</a>&nbsp;<br></div><div><br></=
div><div>Here is a copy of it.</div><div>The sentence is "ko'a pu cusku lo =
se du'u ko'a ca .ei cliva".</div><div><br></div><div>gleki:</div><blockquot=
e style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div><span styl=
e=3D"font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; ">doi .filipos.</span></div><div><b=
r style=3D"font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; "></div><div><span style=3D"f=
ont-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; ">don't you think that attitudinals like =
{.ei} can refer to the speaker only.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-f=
amily: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; ">In relative clauses it's not possible to use=
 {.ei} refering to anyone described.</span></div><div><br style=3D"font-fam=
ily: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; "></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: 'Trebuc=
het MS', sans; ">What is your opinion about just {bilga} or at least carefu=
l usage {of .eida'oi}</span></div><div><br style=3D"font-family: 'Trebuchet=
 MS', sans; "></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; =
">Attitudinals express true emotions which you can never be sure about othe=
r people.</span>&nbsp;</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;filipos:=
</div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"=
><div><span style=3D"font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; ">doi gleki</span><=
/div><div><br style=3D"font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; "></div><div><spa=
n style=3D"font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; ">I think irrealis attitudina=
ls (~propositional indicators) in subordinate clauses should be considered =
part of them. For one thing, giving short scope to attitudinals in general =
means they providing equal expressive power to main bridi and abstraction b=
ridi. More importantly, for the particular case of irrealis, I see no gener=
al useful alternative interpretation.</span></div><div><br style=3D"font-fa=
mily: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; "></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: 'Trebu=
chet MS', sans; ">So,</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: 'Trebuch=
et MS', sans; ">{ko'a ca .ei cliva} "ko'a should leave now"</span></div><di=
v><span style=3D"font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; ">{lo du'u ko'a ca .ei =
cliva} "The proposition &lt;koha should leave now&gt;"</span></div><div><sp=
an style=3D"font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; ">{lo se du'u ko'a ca .ei cl=
iva} "A sentence expressing that koha should leave now"</span></div><div><b=
r style=3D"font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; "></div><div><span style=3D"f=
ont-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; ">You could use {bilga} in an alternative=
 translation. {da'oi} does not help if you think that {.ei} has long scope.=
</span></div><div><br style=3D"font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; "></div><=
div><span style=3D"font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans; ">Irrealis attitudina=
ls are a fundamental part of what is being stated, not a side emotional exp=
ression like {.ui}.</span>&nbsp;</div></blockquote>

<p></p>

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ojban-beginners/-/b93oXtl_SQMJ</a>.<br />=20
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/>
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