Received: from mail-we0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]:37930) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SQQ37-0005Z7-Vf; Fri, 04 May 2012 14:28:27 -0700 Received: by wera1 with SMTP id a1sf2058146wer.16 for ; Fri, 04 May 2012 14:28:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=myZaCwZJZVhXHibUa+zoM9cC5IZ6FVoSHRlZZ1/nCLI=; b=uGgDd1dw/biFJ/9SDX6RgdSXVfet6UQsgZORVVTl9O1OiFvNzFvgJhiygN2eaJXlKt AYgB7gksZ2+qQIc1FVgzJPE1XzSr72w+MFmwemi9S8rBYRStr8hKYUFcbj3wyT42O7wA XtiLNH0SSsrXyRegw2g+I8GmLoRfEEA7HSoK4= Received: by 10.205.131.137 with SMTP id hq9mr192002bkc.33.1336166897957; Fri, 04 May 2012 14:28:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.154.7 with SMTP id m7ls1569504bkw.5.gmail; Fri, 04 May 2012 14:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.156.199 with SMTP id y7mr960790bkw.7.1336166879270; Fri, 04 May 2012 14:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.156.199 with SMTP id y7mr960789bkw.7.1336166879235; Fri, 04 May 2012 14:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f174.google.com (mail-lb0-f174.google.com [209.85.217.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p5si11406930bks.1.2012.05.04.14.27.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 04 May 2012 14:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.174; Received: by lbbgm6 with SMTP id gm6so3381294lbb.33 for ; Fri, 04 May 2012 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.29.166 with SMTP id l6mr3579150lbh.78.1336166878714; Fri, 04 May 2012 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.22.68 with HTTP; Fri, 4 May 2012 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 15:27:58 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Reuse request From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d040169632a9aac04bf3c9898 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d040169632a9aac04bf3c9898 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > > On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Michael Turniansky > > wrote: >> >>> Hi, finally got a chance to read through this and I don't know if >>> you've already discussed the following points, so if so, please ignore: >>> >>> 1. You are using "ralte" where you probably more likely want "ponse" >>> >> >> No. I most certainly want "hold", not 'own". >> >> > > "hold" is "jgari" "ralte" means to "hold on to/retain". > You're right. I used the wrong word. But your original suggestion wasn't correct, either. > And they are doing neither to their pets. > I wasn't aware that I had used ralte in relation to anyone's pets, but I see now I did do that in #26. That will have to be fixed. > 2. Why "mi srana lo xance" rather than "mi se xance"? >>> >> >> Because it a translation from the Ceqli. >> >> "go ten taq. go ten dwe si taq. go ten daya sa taq ja kiri sa taq. go ten >> dwe si taq. han, dwe!" >> "I have hand. I have two of hand. I have right-hand and left-hand. I have >> two of hand. Hand, two!" >> >> This is obviously not have as in ralte or ponse, either. >> >> > > But "I have a hand" is "mi se xance" "I have two hands" is "mi se xance > lo remei" "mi se xance lo pritu", etc. > Fine, but what's the general valsi for "have" in the sense used here, which is neither hold, nor possess, nor retain? Are you suggesting that every instance of " srana lo " be changed to " se "? > 3. You are using "srana" in panels 62-65 (and maybe elsewhere) when >>> you really want "ckini" if you mean "related to". "srana" means >>> "pertaining to" >>> >> >> In Ceqli the word is "ten". "ten" means "have / possess". In Lojban, that >> means srana / ralte / ponse, as far as I'm concerned. I know that srana >> does not mean "related to" in the familial sense. >> >> > > But are you trying to make a lojban primer, or trying to make a > word-by-word literal translation of Ceqli, which never works out going > between ANY pair of languages? The point being that "I have a son (etc)" > is simply "mi se bersa" > I do not consider it to be useful as a primer- I don't even consider the original Ceqli one to be useful as a Ceqli primer. It was my intent to hold as close as possible to the original, but I knew before I started that an exact "word-by-word translation" wasn't going to be possible. > 4. You are using "verba" where you probably want "panzi" Where the >>> latter is not incorrect, per se, it's the analog to tixnu and and bersa >>> that you are using in those panels. >>> >> >> No. I most certainly want child "a young person", not "an offspring". >> >> > If you are saying "I have three children", if you are using "verba", it > could just mean you've kidnapped some kids off the street and are keeping > them in your basement. What the _meaning_ of the sentence you want to > convey is "There are three things that are my offspring" -> "mi se panzi lo > cimei (/ci da)" > I see your point. There are no points where verba could not be replaced with panzi. On another note, where the /hell/ where you two months ago, when I was /asking/ people for help with the translation, and submitting my translation for review? Why did you wait until the project was finished and has been downloaded 230+ times to bring these up? > --gejyspa > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --f46d040169632a9aac04bf3c9898 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Michael Turnians= ky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A02. Why "mi srana lo xance" rather than &quo= t;mi se xance"?

Because it a translation from the Ceqli.<= br>
"go ten taq. go ten dwe si taq. go ten daya sa taq ja kiri sa t= aq. go ten dwe si taq. han, dwe!"
"I have hand. I have two of = hand. I have right-hand and left-hand. I have two of hand. Hand, two!"=

This is obviously not have as in ralte or ponse, either.
=A0

=A0 But "I have a hand"= ; is "mi se xance" "I have two hands" is "mi se xa= nce lo remei" "mi se xance lo pritu", etc.


I do not consider it to be useful a= s a primer- I don't even consider the original Ceqli one to be useful a= s a Ceqli primer. It was my intent to hold as close as possible to the orig= inal, but I knew before I started that an exact "word-by-word translat= ion" wasn't going to be possible.
=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
=A04. =A0 You are using "verba" where = you probably want "panzi" =A0Where the latter is not incorrect, p= er se, it's the analog to tixnu and and bersa that you are using in tho= se panels. =A0

No. I most certainly want child "a y= oung person", not "an offspring".
=A0
=A0 If you are saying "I have three children", if= you are using "verba", it could just mean you've kidnapped s= ome kids off the street and are keeping them in your basement. =A0What the = _meaning_ of the sentence you want to convey is "There are three thing= s that are my offspring" -> "mi se panzi lo cimei (/ci da)&quo= t;

I see your point. There are no poin= ts where verba could not be replaced with panzi.

On another note, wh= ere the /hell/ where you two months ago, when I was /asking/ people for hel= p with the translation, and submitting my translation for review? Why did y= ou wait until the project was finished and has been downloaded 230+ times t= o bring these up?
=A0
=A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa
=
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima l= o pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Si= de! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--f46d040169632a9aac04bf3c9898--