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Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 03:22:50 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Reuse request From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174783c864eb8a04bf590538 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --0015174783c864eb8a04bf590538 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Michael Turniansky < >>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, finally got a chance to read through this and I don't know if >>>> you've already discussed the following points, so if so, please ignore: >>>> >>>> 1. You are using "ralte" where you probably more likely want "ponse" >>>> >>> >>> No. I most certainly want "hold", not 'own". >>> >>> >> >> "hold" is "jgari" "ralte" means to "hold on to/retain". >> > > You're right. I used the wrong word. But your original suggestion wasn't > correct, either. > > >> And they are doing neither to their pets. >> > > I wasn't aware that I had used ralte in relation to anyone's pets, but I > see now I did do that in #26. That will have to be fixed. > > >> 2. Why "mi srana lo xance" rather than "mi se xance"? >>>> >>> >>> Because it a translation from the Ceqli. >>> >>> "go ten taq. go ten dwe si taq. go ten daya sa taq ja kiri sa taq. go >>> ten dwe si taq. han, dwe!" >>> "I have hand. I have two of hand. I have right-hand and left-hand. I >>> have two of hand. Hand, two!" >>> >>> This is obviously not have as in ralte or ponse, either. >>> >>> >> >> But "I have a hand" is "mi se xance" "I have two hands" is "mi se xance >> lo remei" "mi se xance lo pritu", etc. >> > > Fine, but what's the general valsi for "have" in the sense used here, > which is neither hold, nor possess, nor retain? Are you suggesting that > every instance of " srana lo " be changed to " se "? > There is no single lojban word which means the English "have" in all its senses (my Merriam Webster lists over 13.) Indeed, I'm surprised that Ceqli does have such a thing. In most cases, such as "I have a house/car/pet/hat", possession is indicated, and "ponse" is correct. In cases of indicating holding something ("I have a gun"), "jgari" would be correct" To indicate a general relationship between two things, the actual nature of the relationship should be indicated ("I have a brother", "I have a head" -> "mi se bruna" "mi se stedu") > > >> 3. You are using "srana" in panels 62-65 (and maybe elsewhere) when >>>> you really want "ckini" if you mean "related to". "srana" means >>>> "pertaining to" >>>> >>> >>> In Ceqli the word is "ten". "ten" means "have / possess". In Lojban, >>> that means srana / ralte / ponse, as far as I'm concerned. I know that >>> srana does not mean "related to" in the familial sense. >>> >>> >> >> But are you trying to make a lojban primer, or trying to make a >> word-by-word literal translation of Ceqli, which never works out going >> between ANY pair of languages? The point being that "I have a son (etc)" >> is simply "mi se bersa" >> > > I do not consider it to be useful as a primer- I don't even consider the > original Ceqli one to be useful as a Ceqli primer. It was my intent to hold > as close as possible to the original, but I knew before I started that an > exact "word-by-word translation" wasn't going to be possible. > > >> 4. You are using "verba" where you probably want "panzi" Where the >>>> latter is not incorrect, per se, it's the analog to tixnu and and bersa >>>> that you are using in those panels. >>>> >>> >>> No. I most certainly want child "a young person", not "an offspring". >>> >>> >> If you are saying "I have three children", if you are using "verba", it >> could just mean you've kidnapped some kids off the street and are keeping >> them in your basement. What the _meaning_ of the sentence you want to >> convey is "There are three things that are my offspring" -> "mi se panzi lo >> cimei (/ci da)" >> > > I see your point. There are no points where verba could not be replaced > with panzi. > > On another note, where the /hell/ where you two months ago, when I was > /asking/ people for help with the translation, and submitting my > translation for review? Why did you wait until the project was finished and > has been downloaded 230+ times to bring these up? > > Well, I did actually write my first note about it on Mar. 16 on your original thread, and I also commented when the first 10 panels were released. Did I have the time to look up the original comic and compare your long draft to it? No, not really (as indicated by the fact that my current response came two weeks after the last comment on this thread), but so many other people were commenting on it, and to be honest, it seemed like you really weren't interested in taking their constructive criticism (your responses ran along the lines of "I know I'm wrong, but I don't care"), so I figured why should I bother wasting my time? Anyway, it was easier to see it in the actual strip, like Renato had done. --gejyspa > --gejyspa >> > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0015174783c864eb8a04bf590538 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at = 5:27 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Michael Tur= niansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Jonathan Jones &= lt;eyeonus@gmail.com= > wrote:

On F= ri, May 4, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:

=A0 Hi, finally got a chance to= read through this and I don't know if you've already discussed the= following points, so if so, please ignore:
=A0

=A01. =A0You are using "ralte" where y= ou probably more likely want "ponse"

No. I most certainly want "hold", not 'own".<= br> =A0

=A0 "hold" = is "jgari" =A0"ralte" means to "hold on to/retain&= quot;.

You're right.= I used the wrong word. But your original suggestion wasn't correct, ei= ther.
=A0

And they = are doing neither to their pets.

I wasn't aware that I had= used ralte in relation to anyone's pets, but I see now I did do that i= n #26. That will have to be fixed.
=A0

=A02. Why "mi srana lo xance" rather than &quo= t;mi se xance"?

Because it a translation from the Ceqli.<= br>
"go ten taq. go ten dwe si taq. go ten daya sa taq ja kiri sa t= aq. go ten dwe si taq. han, dwe!"
"I have hand. I have two of = hand. I have right-hand and left-hand. I have two of hand. Hand, two!"=

This is obviously not have as in ralte or ponse, either.
=A0

=A0 But "I have a hand"= ; is "mi se xance" "I have two hands" is "mi se xa= nce lo remei" "mi se xance lo pritu", etc.

Fine, but what's th= e general valsi for "have" in the sense used here, which is neith= er hold, nor possess, nor retain? Are you suggesting that every instance of= "<x1> srana lo <bridi>" be changed to "<x1&g= t; se <bridi>"?

=A0 There is no single lojban = word which means the English "have" in all its senses (my Merriam= Webster lists over 13.) =A0Indeed, I'm surprised that Ceqli does have = such a thing. =A0In most cases, such as "I have a house/car/pet/hat&qu= ot;, possession is indicated, and "ponse" is correct. =A0In cases= of indicating holding something ("I have a gun"), "jgari&qu= ot; would be correct" To indicate a general relationship between two t= hings, the actual nature of the relationship should be indicated ("I h= ave a brother", "I have a head" -> "mi se bruna"= ; "mi se stedu")

=A0

=A0

<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

=A03. =A0You are using "srana" in pane= ls 62-65 (and maybe elsewhere) when you really want "ckini" if yo= u mean "related to". =A0"srana" means "pertaining = to"

In Ceqli the word is "ten". &qu= ot;ten" means "have / possess". In Lojban, that means srana = / ralte / ponse, as far as I'm concerned. I know that srana does not me= an "related to" in the familial sense.
=A0

=A0 But are you tryin= g to make a lojban primer, or trying to make a word-by-word literal transla= tion of Ceqli, which never works out going between ANY pair of languages? = =A0The point being that "I have a son (etc)" is simply "mi s= e bersa"

I do not consider it to be us= eful as a primer- I don't even consider the original Ceqli one to be us= eful as a Ceqli primer. It was my intent to hold as close as possible to th= e original, but I knew before I started that an exact "word-by-word tr= anslation" wasn't going to be possible.
=A0

<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

=A04. =A0 You are using "verba" where = you probably want "panzi" =A0Where the latter is not incorrect, p= er se, it's the analog to tixnu and and bersa that you are using in tho= se panels. =A0

No. I most certainly want child "a y= oung person", not "an offspring".
=A0
=A0 If you are saying "I have three children", if= you are using "verba", it could just mean you've kidnapped s= ome kids off the street and are keeping them in your basement. =A0What the = _meaning_ of the sentence you want to convey is "There are three thing= s that are my offspring" -> "mi se panzi lo cimei (/ci da)&quo= t;

I see your point. There are n= o points where verba could not be replaced with panzi.

On another no= te, where the /hell/ where you two months ago, when I was /asking/ people f= or help with the translation, and submitting my translation for review? Why= did you wait until the project was finished and has been downloaded 230+ t= imes to bring these up?
=A0

=A0 Well, I did actually wr= ite my first note about it on Mar. 16 on your original thread, and I also c= ommented when the first 10 panels were released. =A0Did I have the time to = look up the original comic and compare your long draft to it? =A0No, not re= ally (as indicated by the fact that my current response came two weeks afte= r the last comment on this thread), =A0but so many other people were commen= ting on it, and to be honest, it seemed like you really weren't interes= ted in taking their constructive criticism (your responses ran along the li= nes of "I know I'm wrong, but I don't care"), so I figure= d why should I bother wasting my time? =A0Anyway, it was easier to see it i= n the actual strip, like Renato had done.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

=A0=A0

=A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai = ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
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