Received: from mail-ee0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]:45428) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SQwS0-0007P1-DM; Sun, 06 May 2012 01:04:19 -0700 Received: by eeke50 with SMTP id e50sf2723843eek.16 for ; Sun, 06 May 2012 01:04:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=c05omrTkJ2kThgx/nY8PNP2Tj/2KDpKk1kCExa7+1M4=; b=QCHsEWVGJxSgR9aI60+3xmWKFpm9Hy+iwumX320Wz+FDTTWJ5lPBClhWVNueNDUln2 wNocRy5rhj1Rk31LpxnDxu7PERMLIrwixeeiyPoU+PJ2ZxyBhatugRYGBvJj7eXMqjYV SmhP9v3JRv8mU/k1QyI92W5lY6XntFyYo+Bac= Received: by 10.180.101.230 with SMTP id fj6mr726614wib.1.1336291448266; Sun, 06 May 2012 01:04:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.143.229 with SMTP id l79ls941008wej.1.gmail; Sun, 06 May 2012 01:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.134.5 with SMTP id r5mr573738wei.6.1336291446495; Sun, 06 May 2012 01:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.134.5 with SMTP id r5mr573735wei.6.1336291446458; Sun, 06 May 2012 01:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-f48.google.com (mail-wg0-f48.google.com [74.125.82.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fm5si1844144wib.2.2012.05.06.01.04.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 06 May 2012 01:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.48; Received: by wgbdq11 with SMTP id dq11so2571388wgb.5 for ; Sun, 06 May 2012 01:04:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.139.67 with SMTP id b45mr3836828wej.0.1336291446158; Sun, 06 May 2012 01:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.55.71 with HTTP; Sun, 6 May 2012 01:04:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 02:04:05 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Reuse request From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d58f00f6f76f04bf5998c8 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --0016e6d58f00f6f76f04bf5998c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Michael Turniansky > > wrote: >> >>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Michael Turniansky < >>>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, finally got a chance to read through this and I don't know if >>>>> you've already discussed the following points, so if so, please ignore: >>>>> >>>>> 1. You are using "ralte" where you probably more likely want "ponse" >>>>> >>>> >>>> No. I most certainly want "hold", not 'own". >>>> >>>> >>> >>> "hold" is "jgari" "ralte" means to "hold on to/retain". >>> >> >> You're right. I used the wrong word. But your original suggestion wasn't >> correct, either. >> >> >>> And they are doing neither to their pets. >>> >> >> I wasn't aware that I had used ralte in relation to anyone's pets, but I >> see now I did do that in #26. That will have to be fixed. >> >> >>> 2. Why "mi srana lo xance" rather than "mi se xance"? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Because it a translation from the Ceqli. >>>> >>>> "go ten taq. go ten dwe si taq. go ten daya sa taq ja kiri sa taq. go >>>> ten dwe si taq. han, dwe!" >>>> "I have hand. I have two of hand. I have right-hand and left-hand. I >>>> have two of hand. Hand, two!" >>>> >>>> This is obviously not have as in ralte or ponse, either. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> But "I have a hand" is "mi se xance" "I have two hands" is "mi se >>> xance lo remei" "mi se xance lo pritu", etc. >>> >> >> Fine, but what's the general valsi for "have" in the sense used here, >> which is neither hold, nor possess, nor retain? Are you suggesting that >> every instance of " srana lo " be changed to " se "? >> > > There is no single lojban word which means the English "have" in all its > senses (my Merriam Webster lists over 13.) Indeed, I'm surprised that > Ceqli does have such a thing. In most cases, such as "I have a > house/car/pet/hat", possession is indicated, and "ponse" is correct. In > cases of indicating holding something ("I have a gun"), "jgari" would be > correct" To indicate a general relationship between two things, the actual > nature of the relationship should be indicated ("I have a brother", "I have > a head" -> "mi se bruna" "mi se stedu") > I didn't say "all" senses. I said "this" sense, and you didn't answer my question. Based on your response, I'll assume your answer would be "yes". > 3. You are using "srana" in panels 62-65 (and maybe elsewhere) when >>>>> you really want "ckini" if you mean "related to". "srana" means >>>>> "pertaining to" >>>>> >>>> >>>> In Ceqli the word is "ten". "ten" means "have / possess". In Lojban, >>>> that means srana / ralte / ponse, as far as I'm concerned. I know that >>>> srana does not mean "related to" in the familial sense. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> But are you trying to make a lojban primer, or trying to make a >>> word-by-word literal translation of Ceqli, which never works out going >>> between ANY pair of languages? The point being that "I have a son (etc)" >>> is simply "mi se bersa" >>> >> >> I do not consider it to be useful as a primer- I don't even consider the >> original Ceqli one to be useful as a Ceqli primer. It was my intent to hold >> as close as possible to the original, but I knew before I started that an >> exact "word-by-word translation" wasn't going to be possible. >> >> >>> 4. You are using "verba" where you probably want "panzi" Where the >>>>> latter is not incorrect, per se, it's the analog to tixnu and and bersa >>>>> that you are using in those panels. >>>>> >>>> >>>> No. I most certainly want child "a young person", not "an offspring". >>>> >>>> >>> If you are saying "I have three children", if you are using "verba", >>> it could just mean you've kidnapped some kids off the street and are >>> keeping them in your basement. What the _meaning_ of the sentence you want >>> to convey is "There are three things that are my offspring" -> "mi se panzi >>> lo cimei (/ci da)" >>> >> >> I see your point. There are no points where verba could not be replaced >> with panzi. >> >> On another note, where the /hell/ where you two months ago, when I was >> /asking/ people for help with the translation, and submitting my >> translation for review? Why did you wait until the project was finished and >> has been downloaded 230+ times to bring these up? >> >> > > Well, I did actually write my first note about it on Mar. 16 on your > original thread, and I also commented when the first 10 panels were > released. Did I have the time to look up the original comic and compare > your long draft to it? No, not really (as indicated by the fact that my > current response came two weeks after the last comment on this thread), > but so many other people were commenting on it, and to be honest, it > seemed like you really weren't interested in taking their constructive > criticism (your responses ran along the lines of "I know I'm wrong, but I > don't care"), so I figured why should I bother wasting my time? Anyway, it > was easier to see it in the actual strip, like Renato had done. > No, my responses ran along the lines of "what you're complaining about is petite". What you're talking about right now is not petite. It's pretty damned important points, actually. Also, I did actually take a lot of the feedback into consideration- the whole thing with using unassigned ko'a, for example- but it turned out that the proposed alternative was actually /worse/ than what I had in some of those cases, so I reverted. I have never refused to make a change when I knew that I was wrong- I have disagreed that some things were wrong. But I have never in my life, in anything, been wrong and decided to continue being so. If it is shown to me that I am wrong, whether it be through other people showing me, as you did with the pet ralte use and the panzi<->verba thing, or by my own furtherance of knowledge, or what-have-you, I will immediately endeavor to be right. I may be stubborn, but I'm not stupid, and refusing to reverse one's stance in the face of overwhelming evidence is stupid. On that note, I am going to make your suggested changes. I just wish you had said something before the involved panels had been made, because it's a hell of a lot less effort to make changes /before/ production than /after/. > --gejyspa > >> --gejyspa >>> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0016e6d58f00f6f76f04bf5998c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Michael Turnians= ky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, May 4= , 2012 at 5:27 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:=
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Michael Tur= niansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= wrote:
On Fri, May = 4, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:
=A0 Hi, finally got a chance to= read through this and I don't know if you've already discussed the= following points, so if so, please ignore:
=A0
=A01. =A0You are using "ralte" where y= ou probably more likely want "ponse"

No. I most certainly want "hold", not 'own".<= br> =A0

=A0 "hold" = is "jgari" =A0"ralte" means to "hold on to/retain&= quot;.

You're right.= I used the wrong word. But your original suggestion wasn't correct, ei= ther.
=A0
And they = are doing neither to their pets.

I wasn't aware that I had= used ralte in relation to anyone's pets, but I see now I did do that i= n #26. That will have to be fixed.
=A0
=A02. Why "mi srana lo xance" rather than &quo= t;mi se xance"?

Because it a translation from the Ceqli.<= br>
"go ten taq. go ten dwe si taq. go ten daya sa taq ja kiri sa t= aq. go ten dwe si taq. han, dwe!"
"I have hand. I have two of = hand. I have right-hand and left-hand. I have two of hand. Hand, two!"=

This is obviously not have as in ralte or ponse, either.
=A0

=A0 But "I have a hand"= ; is "mi se xance" "I have two hands" is "mi se xa= nce lo remei" "mi se xance lo pritu", etc.

Fine, but what's th= e general valsi for "have" in the sense used here, which is neith= er hold, nor possess, nor retain? Are you suggesting that every instance of= "<x1> srana lo <bridi>" be changed to "<x1&g= t; se <bridi>"?

=A0 There is no single l= ojban word which means the English "have" in all its senses (my M= erriam Webster lists over 13.) =A0Indeed, I'm surprised that Ceqli does= have such a thing. =A0In most cases, such as "I have a house/car/pet/= hat", possession is indicated, and "ponse" is correct. =A0In= cases of indicating holding something ("I have a gun"), "jg= ari" would be correct" To indicate a general relationship between= two things, the actual nature of the relationship should be indicated (&qu= ot;I have a brother", "I have a head" -> "mi se brun= a" "mi se stedu")

I didn't say "all" senses. = I said "this" sense, and you didn't answer my question. Based= on your response, I'll assume your answer would be "yes". =A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
=A03. =A0You are using "srana" in pane= ls 62-65 (and maybe elsewhere) when you really want "ckini" if yo= u mean "related to". =A0"srana" means "pertaining = to"

In Ceqli the word is "ten". &qu= ot;ten" means "have / possess". In Lojban, that means srana = / ralte / ponse, as far as I'm concerned. I know that srana does not me= an "related to" in the familial sense.
=A0

=A0 But are you tryin= g to make a lojban primer, or trying to make a word-by-word literal transla= tion of Ceqli, which never works out going between ANY pair of languages? = =A0The point being that "I have a son (etc)" is simply "mi s= e bersa"

I do not consider it to be us= eful as a primer- I don't even consider the original Ceqli one to be us= eful as a Ceqli primer. It was my intent to hold as close as possible to th= e original, but I knew before I started that an exact "word-by-word tr= anslation" wasn't going to be possible.
=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
=A04. =A0 You are using "verba" where = you probably want "panzi" =A0Where the latter is not incorrect, p= er se, it's the analog to tixnu and and bersa that you are using in tho= se panels. =A0

No. I most certainly want child "a y= oung person", not "an offspring".
=A0
=A0 If you are saying "I have three children", if= you are using "verba", it could just mean you've kidnapped s= ome kids off the street and are keeping them in your basement. =A0What the = _meaning_ of the sentence you want to convey is "There are three thing= s that are my offspring" -> "mi se panzi lo cimei (/ci da)&quo= t;

I see your point. There are n= o points where verba could not be replaced with panzi.

On another no= te, where the /hell/ where you two months ago, when I was /asking/ people f= or help with the translation, and submitting my translation for review? Why= did you wait until the project was finished and has been downloaded 230+ t= imes to bring these up?
=A0

=A0 Well, I did actua= lly write my first note about it on Mar. 16 on your original thread, and I = also commented when the first 10 panels were released. =A0Did I have the ti= me to look up the original comic and compare your long draft to it? =A0No, = not really (as indicated by the fact that my current response came two week= s after the last comment on this thread), =A0but so many other people were = commenting on it, and to be honest, it seemed like you really weren't i= nterested in taking their constructive criticism (your responses ran along = the lines of "I know I'm wrong, but I don't care"), so I = figured why should I bother wasting my time? =A0Anyway, it was easier to se= e it in the actual strip, like Renato had done.

No, my responses ran along the lines of &= quot;what you're complaining about is petite". What you're tal= king about right now is not petite. It's pretty damned important points= , actually. Also, I did actually take a lot of the feedback into considerat= ion- the whole thing with using unassigned ko'a, for example- but it tu= rned out that the proposed alternative was actually /worse/ than what I had= in some of those cases, so I reverted. I have never refused to make a chan= ge when I knew that I was wrong- I have disagreed that some things were wro= ng. But I have never in my life, in anything, been wrong and decided to con= tinue being so. If it is shown to me that I am wrong, whether it be through= other people showing me, as you did with the pet ralte use and the panzi&l= t;->verba thing, or by my own furtherance of knowledge, or what-have-you= , I will immediately endeavor to be right. I may be stubborn, but I'm n= ot stupid, and refusing to reverse one's stance in the face of overwhel= ming evidence is stupid.

On that note, I am going to make your suggested changes. I just wish yo= u had said something before the involved panels had been made, because it&#= 39;s a hell of a lot less effort to make changes /before/ production than /= after/.
=A0
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa=A0
=A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa
=

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
=
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&= #39;o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--0016e6d58f00f6f76f04bf5998c8--