' is in fact what you are trying to convey. > >> Well, I did actually write my first note about it on Mar. 16 on your >> original thread, and I also commented when the first 10 panels were >> released. Did I have the time to look up the original comic and compare >> your long draft to it? No, not really (as indicated by the fact that my >> current response came two weeks after the last comment on this thread), >> but so many other people were commenting on it, and to be honest, it >> seemed like you really weren't interested in taking their constructive >> criticism (your responses ran along the lines of "I know I'm wrong, but I >> don't care"), so I figured why should I bother wasting my time? Anyway, it >> was easier to see it in the actual strip, like Renato had done. >> > > No, my responses ran along the lines of "what you're complaining about is > petite". What you're talking about right now is not petite. It's pretty > damned important points, actually. Also, I did actually take a lot of the > feedback into consideration- the whole thing with using unassigned ko'a, > for example- but it turned out that the proposed alternative was actually > /worse/ than what I had in some of those cases, so I reverted. I have never > refused to make a change when I knew that I was wrong- I have disagreed > that some things were wrong. But I have never in my life, in anything, been > wrong and decided to continue being so. If it is shown to me that I am > wrong, whether it be through other people showing me, as you did with the > pet ralte use and the panzi<->verba thing, or by my own furtherance of > knowledge, or what-have-you, I will immediately endeavor to be right. I may > be stubborn, but I'm not stupid, and refusing to reverse one's stance in > the face of overwhelming evidence is stupid. > > For example on the issue of "la" vs. "zo" in regards to the x1 "cmene" you were told you were flat-out wrong about it by many people and yet you dug in your heels for the longest time about it. (on the issue of petty complaints, btw, the word is "petty", not "petite" ;-) ) > On that note, I am going to make your suggested changes. I just wish you > had said something before the involved panels had been made, because it's a > hell of a lot less effort to make changes /before/ production than /after/. > > Sorry. I commiserate. But like I said, I'm very behind on my emails (currently two weeks), and as you might imagine, reading lojban requires more effort than many other things. --gjeyspa -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0015175cbab21030da04bf75bab5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, May 6, 2012 at = 4:04 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Michael Tur= niansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 5:2= 7 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Michael Tur= niansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= wrote:

On Fri, May = 4, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:

=A0<= /div>

=A02. Why "mi srana lo xance" rather than &quo= t;mi se xance"?

Because it a translation from the Ceqli.<= br>
"go ten taq. go ten dwe si taq. go ten daya sa taq ja kiri sa t= aq. go ten dwe si taq. han, dwe!"
"I have hand. I have two of = hand. I have right-hand and left-hand. I have two of hand. Hand, two!"=

This is obviously not have as in ralte or ponse, either.
=A0

=A0 But "I have a hand"= ; is "mi se xance" "I have two hands" is "mi se xa= nce lo remei" "mi se xance lo pritu", etc.

Fine, but what's th= e general valsi for "have" in the sense used here, which is neith= er hold, nor possess, nor retain? Are you suggesting that every instance of= "<x1> srana lo <bridi>" be changed to "<x1&g= t; se <bridi>"?

=A0 There is no single l= ojban word which means the English "have" in all its senses (my M= erriam Webster lists over 13.) =A0Indeed, I'm surprised that Ceqli does= have such a thing. =A0In most cases, such as "I have a house/car/pet/= hat", possession is indicated, and "ponse" is correct. =A0In= cases of indicating holding something ("I have a gun"), "jg= ari" would be correct" To indicate a general relationship between= two things, the actual nature of the relationship should be indicated (&qu= ot;I have a brother", "I have a head" -> "mi se brun= a" "mi se stedu")

I didn't say "all" se= nses. I said "this" sense, and you didn't answer my question.= Based on your response, I'll assume your answer would be "yes&quo= t;.

=A0 =A0Well, the point I was t= rying to make is that lojban would consider "I have a hand" and &= quot;I have a head" to be to DIFFERENT senses of a word glossed in Eng= lish as "have" because one is "being-with-hand" and one= is "being-with-head". =A0So I am not suggesting that "every= instance of '<x1> srana lo <bridi>' be changed to '= ;<x1> se <bridi>'" =A0Only where '<x1> se &l= t;bridi>' is in fact what you are trying to convey.=A0

= =A0 Well, I did actually write my first note about it on Mar. 16 on your or= iginal thread, and I also commented when the first 10 panels were released.= =A0Did I have the time to look up the original comic and compare your long= draft to it? =A0No, not really (as indicated by the fact that my current r= esponse came two weeks after the last comment on this thread), =A0but so ma= ny other people were commenting on it, and to be honest, it seemed like you= really weren't interested in taking their constructive criticism (your= responses ran along the lines of "I know I'm wrong, but I don'= ;t care"), so I figured why should I bother wasting my time? =A0Anyway= , it was easier to see it in the actual strip, like Renato had done.

No, my responses ran along the line= s of "what you're complaining about is petite". What you'= re talking about right now is not petite. It's pretty damned important = points, actually. Also, I did actually take a lot of the feedback into cons= ideration- the whole thing with using unassigned ko'a, for example- but= it turned out that the proposed alternative was actually /worse/ than what= I had in some of those cases, so I reverted. I have never refused to make = a change when I knew that I was wrong- I have disagreed that some things we= re wrong. But I have never in my life, in anything, been wrong and decided = to continue being so. If it is shown to me that I am wrong, whether it be t= hrough other people showing me, as you did with the pet ralte use and the p= anzi<->verba thing, or by my own furtherance of knowledge, or what-ha= ve-you, I will immediately endeavor to be right. I may be stubborn, but I&#= 39;m not stupid, and refusing to reverse one's stance in the face of ov= erwhelming evidence is stupid.

=A0 For example on the iss= ue of "la" vs. "zo" in regards to the x1 "cmene&qu= ot; you were told you were flat-out wrong about it by many people and yet y= ou dug in your heels for the longest time about it.

=A0 (on the issue of petty complaints, btw, the word is= "petty", not "petite" =A0;-) )

=A0

On that note, I am going to make your sugge= sted changes. I just wish you had said something before the involved panels= had been made, because it's a hell of a lot less effort to make change= s /before/ production than /after/.
=A0=A0

=A0 Sorry. =A0I commiser= ate. =A0 But like I said, I'm very behind on my emails (currently two w= eeks), and as you might imagine, reading lojban requires more effort than m= any other things.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gjeyspa

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