Received: from mail-we0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]:58700) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SRTP3-0003iK-OY; Mon, 07 May 2012 12:15:31 -0700 Received: by werb13 with SMTP id b13sf1012358wer.16 for ; Mon, 07 May 2012 12:15:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=LllsFkremBjDXkz7F8FpoFMGhzK3QlrjqlC3rSkC51A=; b=ontufutWbAn+ivp7KXTe5IQ+vEmVv0jNGXwL5fjOnKspmhyVqczM1fgTL2zmJWHXKH rAvtvrObH9eDwjNPqPXPXSG2iluWow1qrjs6qNJXXeGAUnGQG8Cn4uv0yBUCmdu2WqKT RCUmVtlkz4EaXRA+f9ce3Sk+Wr5t5NevIxaYo= Received: by 10.205.141.75 with SMTP id jd11mr455314bkc.29.1336418116451; Mon, 07 May 2012 12:15:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.154.21 with SMTP id m21ls2828744bkw.2.gmail; Mon, 07 May 2012 12:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.149.210 with SMTP id u18mr1921493bkv.1.1336418114037; Mon, 07 May 2012 12:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.149.210 with SMTP id u18mr1921492bkv.1.1336418114003; Mon, 07 May 2012 12:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f43.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f43.google.com [209.85.215.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k15si22651985bks.0.2012.05.07.12.15.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 07 May 2012 12:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.43; Received: by mail-lpp01m010-f43.google.com with SMTP id r15so4393870lag.2 for ; Mon, 07 May 2012 12:15:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.103.194 with SMTP id fy2mr7568071lbb.64.1336418113649; Mon, 07 May 2012 12:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.22.68 with HTTP; Mon, 7 May 2012 12:15:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 13:15:13 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Reuse request From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d040169afef7e5004bf77169c X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d040169afef7e5004bf77169c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Michael Turniansky > > wrote: >> >>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Michael Turniansky < >>>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Michael Turniansky < >>>>>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>> 2. Why "mi srana lo xance" rather than "mi se xance"? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Because it a translation from the Ceqli. >>>>>> >>>>>> "go ten taq. go ten dwe si taq. go ten daya sa taq ja kiri sa taq. go >>>>>> ten dwe si taq. han, dwe!" >>>>>> "I have hand. I have two of hand. I have right-hand and left-hand. I >>>>>> have two of hand. Hand, two!" >>>>>> >>>>>> This is obviously not have as in ralte or ponse, either. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But "I have a hand" is "mi se xance" "I have two hands" is "mi se >>>>> xance lo remei" "mi se xance lo pritu", etc. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Fine, but what's the general valsi for "have" in the sense used here, >>>> which is neither hold, nor possess, nor retain? Are you suggesting that >>>> every instance of " srana lo " be changed to " se "? >>>> >>> >>> There is no single lojban word which means the English "have" in all >>> its senses (my Merriam Webster lists over 13.) Indeed, I'm surprised that >>> Ceqli does have such a thing. In most cases, such as "I have a >>> house/car/pet/hat", possession is indicated, and "ponse" is correct. In >>> cases of indicating holding something ("I have a gun"), "jgari" would be >>> correct" To indicate a general relationship between two things, the actual >>> nature of the relationship should be indicated ("I have a brother", "I have >>> a head" -> "mi se bruna" "mi se stedu") >>> >> >> I didn't say "all" senses. I said "this" sense, and you didn't answer my >> question. Based on your response, I'll assume your answer would be "yes". >> > > Well, the point I was trying to make is that lojban would consider "I > have a hand" and "I have a head" to be to DIFFERENT senses of a word > glossed in English as "have" because one is "being-with-hand" and one is > "being-with-head". So I am not suggesting that "every instance of ' > srana lo ' be changed to ' se '" Only where ' se > ' is in fact what you are trying to convey. > >> >>> Well, I did actually write my first note about it on Mar. 16 on your >>> original thread, and I also commented when the first 10 panels were >>> released. Did I have the time to look up the original comic and compare >>> your long draft to it? No, not really (as indicated by the fact that my >>> current response came two weeks after the last comment on this thread), >>> but so many other people were commenting on it, and to be honest, it >>> seemed like you really weren't interested in taking their constructive >>> criticism (your responses ran along the lines of "I know I'm wrong, but I >>> don't care"), so I figured why should I bother wasting my time? Anyway, it >>> was easier to see it in the actual strip, like Renato had done. >>> >> >> No, my responses ran along the lines of "what you're complaining about is >> petite". What you're talking about right now is not petite. It's pretty >> damned important points, actually. Also, I did actually take a lot of the >> feedback into consideration- the whole thing with using unassigned ko'a, >> for example- but it turned out that the proposed alternative was actually >> /worse/ than what I had in some of those cases, so I reverted. I have never >> refused to make a change when I knew that I was wrong- I have disagreed >> that some things were wrong. But I have never in my life, in anything, been >> wrong and decided to continue being so. If it is shown to me that I am >> wrong, whether it be through other people showing me, as you did with the >> pet ralte use and the panzi<->verba thing, or by my own furtherance of >> knowledge, or what-have-you, I will immediately endeavor to be right. I may >> be stubborn, but I'm not stupid, and refusing to reverse one's stance in >> the face of overwhelming evidence is stupid. >> >> > For example on the issue of "la" vs. "zo" in regards to the x1 "cmene" > you were told you were flat-out wrong about it by many people and yet you > dug in your heels for the longest time about it. > I did say I was stubborn, didn't I? > (on the issue of petty complaints, btw, the word is "petty", not > "petite" ;-) ) > "Petty" is the wrong spelling but the correct pronunciation, "petite" is the correct spelling but the wrong pronunciation. "Petite" is a French word meaning "small". > On that note, I am going to make your suggested changes. I just wish you >> had said something before the involved panels had been made, because it's a >> hell of a lot less effort to make changes /before/ production than /after/. >> >> > > Sorry. I commiserate. But like I said, I'm very behind on my emails > (currently two weeks), and as you might imagine, reading lojban requires > more effort than many other things. > --gjeyspa > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --f46d040169afef7e5004bf77169c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Michael Turnian= sky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, May 6= , 2012 at 4:04 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:=
On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 1:= 22 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:=
On Fri, = May 4, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> w= rote:
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:= 02 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:=
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= wrote:
On Fri, May = 4, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:

=A0<= /div>
=A02. Why "mi srana lo xance" rather than &quo= t;mi se xance"?

Because it a translation from the Ceqli.<= br>
"go ten taq. go ten dwe si taq. go ten daya sa taq ja kiri sa t= aq. go ten dwe si taq. han, dwe!"
"I have hand. I have two of = hand. I have right-hand and left-hand. I have two of hand. Hand, two!"=

This is obviously not have as in ralte or ponse, either.
=A0

=A0 But "I have a hand"= ; is "mi se xance" "I have two hands" is "mi se xa= nce lo remei" "mi se xance lo pritu", etc.

Fine, but what's th= e general valsi for "have" in the sense used here, which is neith= er hold, nor possess, nor retain? Are you suggesting that every instance of= "<x1> srana lo <bridi>" be changed to "<x1&g= t; se <bridi>"?

= =A0 There is no single lojban word which means the English "have"= in all its senses (my Merriam Webster lists over 13.) =A0Indeed, I'm s= urprised that Ceqli does have such a thing. =A0In most cases, such as "= ;I have a house/car/pet/hat", possession is indicated, and "ponse= " is correct. =A0In cases of indicating holding something ("I hav= e a gun"), "jgari" would be correct" To indicate a gene= ral relationship between two things, the actual nature of the relationship = should be indicated ("I have a brother", "I have a head"= ; -> "mi se bruna" "mi se stedu")

I didn'= t say "all" senses. I said "this" sense, and you didn&#= 39;t answer my question. Based on your response, I'll assume your answe= r would be "yes".

=A0 =A0Well, the point I= was trying to make is that lojban would consider "I have a hand"= and "I have a head" to be to DIFFERENT senses of a word glossed = in English as "have" because one is "being-with-hand" a= nd one is "being-with-head". =A0So I am not suggesting that "= ;every instance of '<x1> srana lo <bridi>' be changed t= o '<x1> se <bridi>'" =A0Only where '<x1>= se <bridi>' is in fact what you are trying to convey.=A0

= =A0 Well, I did actually write my first note about it on Mar. 16 on your or= iginal thread, and I also commented when the first 10 panels were released.= =A0Did I have the time to look up the original comic and compare your long= draft to it? =A0No, not really (as indicated by the fact that my current r= esponse came two weeks after the last comment on this thread), =A0but so ma= ny other people were commenting on it, and to be honest, it seemed like you= really weren't interested in taking their constructive criticism (your= responses ran along the lines of "I know I'm wrong, but I don'= ;t care"), so I figured why should I bother wasting my time? =A0Anyway= , it was easier to see it in the actual strip, like Renato had done.

No, my responses ran along the line= s of "what you're complaining about is petite". What you'= re talking about right now is not petite. It's pretty damned important = points, actually. Also, I did actually take a lot of the feedback into cons= ideration- the whole thing with using unassigned ko'a, for example- but= it turned out that the proposed alternative was actually /worse/ than what= I had in some of those cases, so I reverted. I have never refused to make = a change when I knew that I was wrong- I have disagreed that some things we= re wrong. But I have never in my life, in anything, been wrong and decided = to continue being so. If it is shown to me that I am wrong, whether it be t= hrough other people showing me, as you did with the pet ralte use and the p= anzi<->verba thing, or by my own furtherance of knowledge, or what-ha= ve-you, I will immediately endeavor to be right. I may be stubborn, but I&#= 39;m not stupid, and refusing to reverse one's stance in the face of ov= erwhelming evidence is stupid.


=A0 For example on t= he issue of "la" vs. "zo" in regards to the x1 "cm= ene" you were told you were flat-out wrong about it by many people and= yet you dug in your heels for the longest time about it.

I did say I was stubborn, didn't I?=A0
=A0 (on the issue of petty complaints, btw, the word is &qu= ot;petty", not "petite" =A0;-) )

"Petty" is the wrong spelling but the correct pronunc= iation, "petite" is the correct spelling but the wrong pronunciat= ion. "Petite" is a French word meaning "small".
=A0
On that note, I am going to make your sugge= sted changes. I just wish you had said something before the involved panels= had been made, because it's a hell of a lot less effort to make change= s /before/ production than /after/.
=A0=A0

=A0 Sorry. =A0I co= mmiserate. =A0 But like I said, I'm very behind on my emails (currently= two weeks), and as you might imagine, reading lojban requires more effort = than many other things.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gjeyspa

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--f46d040169afef7e5004bf77169c--