Received: from mail-wg0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]:40624) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SRUs0-0004FT-Qu; Mon, 07 May 2012 13:49:31 -0700 Received: by wgbdt10 with SMTP id dt10sf3951910wgb.16 for ; Mon, 07 May 2012 13:49:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=1ozk1YSfxbCayP58drkLQbq/sOaCd9nFbPG98J1afM4=; b=gWUNtpp3Qwl8PiR36sizgFQ4Pb6S6ShG+0808hRrTxSJeOb4f6YMyEo3fBZdS45FCP s18VVsv7W/8GAkJ8yCf/KZtZlo08+AE7Qiedwbc+R3HoOpSahQ/f2xXpYVyy0BWRKo4Z efrAF4ngud9Od9XTd86YZRIekI/E6OeYI0ag8= Received: by 10.204.155.155 with SMTP id s27mr103834bkw.20.1336423756762; Mon, 07 May 2012 13:49:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.154.21 with SMTP id m21ls2896333bkw.2.gmail; Mon, 07 May 2012 13:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.141.4 with SMTP id k4mr1951962bku.6.1336423755577; Mon, 07 May 2012 13:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.141.4 with SMTP id k4mr1951959bku.6.1336423755497; Mon, 07 May 2012 13:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f181.google.com (mail-lb0-f181.google.com [209.85.217.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ig3si5985363bkc.3.2012.05.07.13.49.15 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 07 May 2012 13:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.181; Received: by lbbgk8 with SMTP id gk8so4191311lbb.26 for ; Mon, 07 May 2012 13:49:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.103.199 with SMTP id fy7mr15088502lab.48.1336423755024; Mon, 07 May 2012 13:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.22.68 with HTTP; Mon, 7 May 2012 13:49:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 14:49:14 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Reuse request From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0407148730076a04bf786702 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d0407148730076a04bf786702 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Michael Turniansky < >> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Michael Turniansky < >>>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Michael Turniansky < >>>>>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Michael Turniansky < >>>>>>>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> 2. Why "mi srana lo xance" rather than "mi se xance"? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Because it a translation from the Ceqli. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "go ten taq. go ten dwe si taq. go ten daya sa taq ja kiri sa taq. >>>>>>>> go ten dwe si taq. han, dwe!" >>>>>>>> "I have hand. I have two of hand. I have right-hand and left-hand. >>>>>>>> I have two of hand. Hand, two!" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is obviously not have as in ralte or ponse, either. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But "I have a hand" is "mi se xance" "I have two hands" is "mi se >>>>>>> xance lo remei" "mi se xance lo pritu", etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Fine, but what's the general valsi for "have" in the sense used here, >>>>>> which is neither hold, nor possess, nor retain? Are you suggesting that >>>>>> every instance of " srana lo " be changed to " se "? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There is no single lojban word which means the English "have" in all >>>>> its senses (my Merriam Webster lists over 13.) Indeed, I'm surprised that >>>>> Ceqli does have such a thing. In most cases, such as "I have a >>>>> house/car/pet/hat", possession is indicated, and "ponse" is correct. In >>>>> cases of indicating holding something ("I have a gun"), "jgari" would be >>>>> correct" To indicate a general relationship between two things, the actual >>>>> nature of the relationship should be indicated ("I have a brother", "I have >>>>> a head" -> "mi se bruna" "mi se stedu") >>>>> >>>> >>>> I didn't say "all" senses. I said "this" sense, and you didn't answer >>>> my question. Based on your response, I'll assume your answer would be "yes". >>>> >>> >>> Well, the point I was trying to make is that lojban would consider "I >>> have a hand" and "I have a head" to be to DIFFERENT senses of a word >>> glossed in English as "have" because one is "being-with-hand" and one is >>> "being-with-head". So I am not suggesting that "every instance of ' >>> srana lo ' be changed to ' se '" Only where ' se >>> ' is in fact what you are trying to convey. >>> >>>> >>>>> Well, I did actually write my first note about it on Mar. 16 on your >>>>> original thread, and I also commented when the first 10 panels were >>>>> released. Did I have the time to look up the original comic and compare >>>>> your long draft to it? No, not really (as indicated by the fact that my >>>>> current response came two weeks after the last comment on this thread), >>>>> but so many other people were commenting on it, and to be honest, it >>>>> seemed like you really weren't interested in taking their constructive >>>>> criticism (your responses ran along the lines of "I know I'm wrong, but I >>>>> don't care"), so I figured why should I bother wasting my time? Anyway, it >>>>> was easier to see it in the actual strip, like Renato had done. >>>>> >>>> >>>> No, my responses ran along the lines of "what you're complaining about >>>> is petite". What you're talking about right now is not petite. It's pretty >>>> damned important points, actually. Also, I did actually take a lot of the >>>> feedback into consideration- the whole thing with using unassigned ko'a, >>>> for example- but it turned out that the proposed alternative was actually >>>> /worse/ than what I had in some of those cases, so I reverted. I have never >>>> refused to make a change when I knew that I was wrong- I have disagreed >>>> that some things were wrong. But I have never in my life, in anything, been >>>> wrong and decided to continue being so. If it is shown to me that I am >>>> wrong, whether it be through other people showing me, as you did with the >>>> pet ralte use and the panzi<->verba thing, or by my own furtherance of >>>> knowledge, or what-have-you, I will immediately endeavor to be right. I may >>>> be stubborn, but I'm not stupid, and refusing to reverse one's stance in >>>> the face of overwhelming evidence is stupid. >>>> >>>> >>> For example on the issue of "la" vs. "zo" in regards to the x1 "cmene" >>> you were told you were flat-out wrong about it by many people and yet you >>> dug in your heels for the longest time about it. >>> >> >> I did say I was stubborn, didn't I? >> >> >>> (on the issue of petty complaints, btw, the word is "petty", not >>> "petite" ;-) ) >>> >> >> "Petty" is the wrong spelling but the correct pronunciation, "petite" is >> the correct spelling but the wrong pronunciation. "Petite" is a French word >> meaning "small". >> >> > > Yes, "petite" is the French for small, however, the English word > "petty", which is derived from the French, is the correct spelling for what > you are trying to convey. To quote from Merriam Webster's 11th collegiate: > > *1 :* having secondary rank or importance *:* minor > , subordinate > 2 > *:* having little or no importance or significance > 3 > *:* marked by or reflective of narrow interests and sympathies *:* > small-minded > ... > Examples of *PETTY* > > 1. a *petty* argument about grammar > > > It is definition 2 (or perhaps 1) that you are looking at here, and is > directly conveyed by their example. > (Have I mentioned that I am an editor over at an English language > website for about 8years? ;-) ) > > Incidentally, I didn't stress that I DO appreciate the work you have > done, and don't mean to denigrate it in any way. Your translation of the > comic is of great importance. > > --gejyspa > I know the English definitions. I know that in English, "Petite" is pronounced "pe-teet" and is a woman's garment size. I think that whole thing is stupid, and choose to use the French word exclusively. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --f46d0407148730076a04bf786702 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Michael Turnians= ky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:


On Mo= n, May 7, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Michael Tu= rniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 4:0= 4 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Michae= l Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, May 4, 2012 a= t 5:27 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Michae= l Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= wrote:
On Fri, May = 4, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:

=A0<= /div>
=A02. Why "mi srana lo xance" rather than &quo= t;mi se xance"?

Because it a translation from the Ceqli.<= br>
"go ten taq. go ten dwe si taq. go ten daya sa taq ja kiri sa t= aq. go ten dwe si taq. han, dwe!"
"I have hand. I have two of = hand. I have right-hand and left-hand. I have two of hand. Hand, two!"=

This is obviously not have as in ralte or ponse, either.
=A0

=A0 But "I have a hand"= ; is "mi se xance" "I have two hands" is "mi se xa= nce lo remei" "mi se xance lo pritu", etc.

Fine, but what's th= e general valsi for "have" in the sense used here, which is neith= er hold, nor possess, nor retain? Are you suggesting that every instance of= "<x1> srana lo <bridi>" be changed to "<x1&g= t; se <bridi>"?

=A0 There is = no single lojban word which means the English "have" in all its s= enses (my Merriam Webster lists over 13.) =A0Indeed, I'm surprised that= Ceqli does have such a thing. =A0In most cases, such as "I have a hou= se/car/pet/hat", possession is indicated, and "ponse" is cor= rect. =A0In cases of indicating holding something ("I have a gun"= ), "jgari" would be correct" To indicate a general relations= hip between two things, the actual nature of the relationship should be ind= icated ("I have a brother", "I have a head" -> "= ;mi se bruna" "mi se stedu")

I didn't say "a= ll" senses. I said "this" sense, and you didn't answer m= y question. Based on your response, I'll assume your answer would be &q= uot;yes".

=A0 =A0Well, the point I= was trying to make is that lojban would consider "I have a hand"= and "I have a head" to be to DIFFERENT senses of a word glossed = in English as "have" because one is "being-with-hand" a= nd one is "being-with-head". =A0So I am not suggesting that "= ;every instance of '<x1> srana lo <bridi>' be changed t= o '<x1> se <bridi>'" =A0Only where '<x1>= se <bridi>' is in fact what you are trying to convey.=A0

= =A0 Well, I did actually write my first note about it on Mar. 16 on your or= iginal thread, and I also commented when the first 10 panels were released.= =A0Did I have the time to look up the original comic and compare your long= draft to it? =A0No, not really (as indicated by the fact that my current r= esponse came two weeks after the last comment on this thread), =A0but so ma= ny other people were commenting on it, and to be honest, it seemed like you= really weren't interested in taking their constructive criticism (your= responses ran along the lines of "I know I'm wrong, but I don'= ;t care"), so I figured why should I bother wasting my time? =A0Anyway= , it was easier to see it in the actual strip, like Renato had done.

No, my responses ran along the line= s of "what you're complaining about is petite". What you'= re talking about right now is not petite. It's pretty damned important = points, actually. Also, I did actually take a lot of the feedback into cons= ideration- the whole thing with using unassigned ko'a, for example- but= it turned out that the proposed alternative was actually /worse/ than what= I had in some of those cases, so I reverted. I have never refused to make = a change when I knew that I was wrong- I have disagreed that some things we= re wrong. But I have never in my life, in anything, been wrong and decided = to continue being so. If it is shown to me that I am wrong, whether it be t= hrough other people showing me, as you did with the pet ralte use and the p= anzi<->verba thing, or by my own furtherance of knowledge, or what-ha= ve-you, I will immediately endeavor to be right. I may be stubborn, but I&#= 39;m not stupid, and refusing to reverse one's stance in the face of ov= erwhelming evidence is stupid.


=A0 For example on t= he issue of "la" vs. "zo" in regards to the x1 "cm= ene" you were told you were flat-out wrong about it by many people and= yet you dug in your heels for the longest time about it.

I did say I was stubborn, didn'= t I?
=A0
=A0 (on the issue of petty complaints, btw, the word is &qu= ot;petty", not "petite" =A0;-) )

"Petty" is the wrong spelling but the correct p= ronunciation, "petite" is the correct spelling but the wrong pron= unciation. "Petite" is a French word meaning "small". =A0

=A0 Yes, "petite= " is the French for small, however, the English word "petty"= , which is derived from the French, is the correct spelling for what you ar= e trying to convey. =A0To quote from Merriam Webster's 11th collegiate:=

1 :=A0<= span style=3D"line-height:20px;font-size:13px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Hel= vetica,sans-serif">having secondary rank or importance=A0:=A0minor,=A0subordinate
2
:=A0having little or no importa= nce or significance
3
:=A0marked by or reflecti= ve of narrow interests and sympathies=A0:s= mall-minded
...

Examples of=A0PETTY

  1. a=A0petty=A0argument about grammar
<= br>
=A0 =A0 It is definition 2 (or perhaps 1) that you are lookin= g at here, and is directly conveyed by their example.
=A0 =A0 (Ha= ve I mentioned that I am an editor over at an English language website for = about 8years? =A0;-) )

=A0 =A0 Incidentally, I didn't stress that I DO app= reciate the work you have done, and don't mean to denigrate it in any w= ay. =A0Your translation of the comic is of great importance.

=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

I know the English definitions. I know that in English, "Petit= e" is pronounced "pe-teet" and is a woman's garment size= . I think that whole thing is stupid, and choose to use the French word exc= lusively.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Lu= ke, I am your father. :D )

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
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