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On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com>wrote:

> <snip>
>>
>>  ... "I have a hand" is "mi se xance" "I have two hands" is "mi se xance
>> lo remei" "mi se xance lo pritu", etc.
>>
>
>>>> Fine, but what's the general valsi for "have" in the sense used here,
>>>> which is neither hold, nor possess, nor retain? Are you suggesting that
>>>> every instance of "<x1> srana lo <bridi>" be changed to "<x1> se <bridi>"?
>>>>
>>>
>>>   There is no single lojban word which means the English "have" in all
>>> its senses (my Merriam Webster lists over 13.)  Indeed, I'm surprised that
>>> Ceqli does have such a thing.  In most cases, such as "I have a
>>> house/car/pet/hat", possession is indicated, and "ponse" is correct.  In
>>> cases of indicating holding something ("I have a gun"), "jgari" would be
>>> correct" To indicate a general relationship between two things, the actual
>>> nature of the relationship should be indicated ("I have a brother", "I have
>>> a head" -> "mi se bruna" "mi se stedu")
>>>
>>
>> I didn't say "all" senses. I said "this" sense, and you didn't answer my
>> question. Based on your response, I'll assume your answer would be "yes".
>>
>
>    Well, the point I was trying to make is that lojban would consider "I
> have a hand" and "I have a head" to be to DIFFERENT senses of a word
> glossed in English as "have" because one is "being-with-hand" and one is
> "being-with-head".  So I am not suggesting that "every instance of '<x1>
> srana lo <bridi>' be changed to '<x1> se <bridi>'"  Only where '<x1> se
> <bridi>' is in fact what you are trying to convey.
>

So, in other words, your answer is "yes", at least in the cases where the
place structure of <bridi> is "x1 is the <bridi> of x2 ...", such as with
stedu, xance, dalpe'o, famti, panzi, etc., etc.

Obviously in the case of valsi that don't follow that pattern we just can't
use that word for that sense of "have", since apparently we have no valsi
that has that sense /generally/, which, by the way, was what I was asking.

Also, I disagree that pets are owned. Yes, they are bought, but I don't
consider any living thing property, so ponse is definitely not the right
word for the relationship between myself and my pets.

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Michael Turnian=
sky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">&lt;snip&gt;<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div>=A0... &quot;I have a hand&quot; is &quot;mi se xance&quot; &quot;I ha=
ve two hands&quot; is &quot;mi se xance lo remei&quot; &quot;mi se xance lo=
 pritu&quot;, etc.<br>







</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im"><div><br>Fine, but what&#=
39;s the general valsi for &quot;have&quot; in the sense used here, which i=
s neither hold, nor possess, nor retain? Are you suggesting that every inst=
ance of &quot;&lt;x1&gt; srana lo &lt;bridi&gt;&quot; be changed to &quot;&=
lt;x1&gt; se &lt;bridi&gt;&quot;?<br>





</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"im"><div>=
=A0 There is no single lojban word which means the English &quot;have&quot;=
 in all its senses (my Merriam Webster lists over 13.) =A0Indeed, I&#39;m s=
urprised that Ceqli does have such a thing. =A0In most cases, such as &quot=
;I have a house/car/pet/hat&quot;, possession is indicated, and &quot;ponse=
&quot; is correct. =A0In cases of indicating holding something (&quot;I hav=
e a gun&quot;), &quot;jgari&quot; would be correct&quot; To indicate a gene=
ral relationship between two things, the actual nature of the relationship =
should be indicated (&quot;I have a brother&quot;, &quot;I have a head&quot=
; -&gt; &quot;mi se bruna&quot; &quot;mi se stedu&quot;)</div>



</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"im"><div><br>I didn&#39;=
t say &quot;all&quot; senses. I said &quot;this&quot; sense, and you didn&#=
39;t answer my question. Based on your response, I&#39;ll assume your answe=
r would be &quot;yes&quot;.<br>


</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=A0 =A0Well, the point I=
 was trying to make is that lojban would consider &quot;I have a hand&quot;=
 and &quot;I have a head&quot; to be to DIFFERENT senses of a word glossed =
in English as &quot;have&quot; because one is &quot;being-with-hand&quot; a=
nd one is &quot;being-with-head&quot;. =A0So I am not suggesting that &quot=
;every instance of &#39;&lt;x1&gt; srana lo &lt;bridi&gt;&#39; be changed t=
o &#39;&lt;x1&gt; se &lt;bridi&gt;&#39;&quot; =A0Only where &#39;&lt;x1&gt;=
 se &lt;bridi&gt;&#39; is in fact what you are trying to convey.=A0</div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br>So, in other words, your answer is &quot;=
yes&quot;, at least in the cases where the place structure of &lt;bridi&gt;=
 is &quot;x1 is the &lt;bridi&gt; of x2 ...&quot;, such as with stedu, xanc=
e, dalpe&#39;o, famti, panzi, etc., etc.<br>
<br>Obviously in the case of valsi that don&#39;t follow that pattern we ju=
st can&#39;t use that word for that sense of &quot;have&quot;, since appare=
ntly we have no valsi that has that sense /generally/, which, by the way, w=
as what I was asking.<br>
<br>Also, I disagree that pets are owned. Yes, they are bought, but I don&#=
39;t consider any living thing property, so ponse is definitely not the rig=
ht word for the relationship between myself and my pets.<br></div></div>
<br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo piln=
o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Lu=
ke, I am your father. :D )<br><br>

<p></p>

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Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
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