On Thu, May = 10, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> w= rote:

Miles has point, though. His views on the de= npa bu are pretty interesting.=A0
The approximants in [uV] and [iV], IP= A /j/ and /w/, can be consonantal, which frees them of denpa bu requirement= as explained in the CLL, which does so because it considers them to be rea= l vowels, which they aren't quite.

When it comes to actually *writing* the denpa bu, I am = a bad example. In informal IRC chat, I practically never use it, but in my = translations, I do. It depends simply on how hooked you are on audio-visual= isomorphism, which Lojban doesn't actually even adhere to so much, say= s xorxes. I think that in more formal contexts, like translations or any of= ficial-ish written work, it's important to put them, but otherwise, in = that regard, I see them much like periods, commas or other punctuation in E= nglish: elidable when no confusion results.
mu'o mi'e la tsani
On 10 May 2012 15:36, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

=A0 Not to mention that the= CLL specifically SAYS that "uV" and "iV" require a pau= se before them. (Chapter 4.2) =A0You are right, Miles, "Some here seem= to lack reading comprehension"

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus= @gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, May = 10, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Miles Forster <m3o@plasmatix.com> wrote= :

=20 =20 =20
.y bu is not "u". .u bu is. And the u in ui is not pronounced= [u] but [w] which *is* a consonant. Some here seem to lack reading comprehension. It's annoying to argue with people who won't lis= ten to what the other person is saying.
Whether or not something is a vowel depends on the way it's pronounced, not the way it's written.
<= div>
I'm sorry, Miles, but you're wrong. There are no consonants= in the Lojban word ".ui". Regardless of it's pronunciation a= s the leading vowel of a diphthong, u is still a vowel.

And just so we're clear, a diphthong is a sound represented by a co= mbination of two vowels. In Lojban, the diphthong "ui" is pronoun= ced as in the English word "we", but that does not suddenly make = the "u" in it a consonant.
=A0
mu'o

Am 10.05.2012 02:12, schrieb Michael Turniansky:

=A0 It is, and it always does require a pause in front of it. =A0Miles is wrong.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 8:10 PM, =C1lvaro Vallejo <avallejor@gmail.com> wrote:

.uesai

- "The initial period can never be omitted before vowe= ls (if they are phonetically vowels. {ui} =3D [wi], so no dot is necessary). "

- "ui does not begin in a vowel. Therefore, no denpa bu is needed."

Well... I am really shocked! How is it that "u" is = not a vowel? It IS a vowel or I should start learning again Lojban from zero: it's name is indeed ybu, isn't it?<= br> (Chapter 1 of Lojban for beginners, Chapter 2 of CLL)...

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--=20 .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna=20 .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

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