Received: from mail-pb0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]:58130) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SSwS6-0007kF-MT; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:28:50 -0700 Received: by pbbro2 with SMTP id ro2sf3958757pbb.16 for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:28:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=7qSDklT1BuJ6Qx052uMR9PjxHeE77TCDKDWzQkmWiFs=; b=vG8y6GdoCLmKlersA/W+4Yb3uvh6jamuk6o/Crf/5FhMdD9Hsax6YqlOFpyNZ7jsU7 Dd5uZyjV6tRxHKmV2zbNLsax6bbgTMsiFwc77ZfCv5fB54I/pR2p3rd/I8rdfS9+k5S4 AYGqyczkFbkGhy3Tvr5HLb5uSV8GXTIKSVHXk= Received: by 10.52.69.48 with SMTP id b16mr429894vdu.13.1336768112106; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:28:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.20.141 with SMTP id n13ls929454vde.7.gmail; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.23.146 with SMTP id m18mr6950653vdf.7.1336768111496; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.23.146 with SMTP id m18mr6950652vdf.7.1336768111475; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vb0-f41.google.com (mail-vb0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l12si4391465vdf.3.2012.05.11.13.28.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 11 May 2012 13:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.41; Received: by vbbey12 with SMTP id ey12so4571681vbb.14 for ; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.26.209 with SMTP id n17mr268610vdg.104.1336768110958; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:28:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.75.104 with HTTP; Fri, 11 May 2012 13:28:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <22560097.502.1336568142532.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yndm3> <13954430.1727.1336608605204.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynbv35> <4FAB92A7.8030500@plasmatix.com> From: Jacob Errington Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 16:28:10 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: 'tesete' and cmavo cluster rules To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3079c10066978404bfc89429 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: No one, as far as I know ever said it was. In my post, I said that I consider it to be *like* English punctuation, where simsa3 is that it can be omitted when no confusion results. I never said that denpa bu *is* punctuation. [...] Content analysis details: (0.1 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (nictytan[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid --20cf3079c10066978404bfc89429 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No one, as far as I know ever said it was. In my post, I said that I consider it to be *like* English punctuation, where simsa3 is that it can be omitted when no confusion results. I never said that denpa bu *is* punctuation. On 11 May 2012 16:16, Jonathan Jones wrote: > denpa bu is not punctuation. > > > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Jacob Errington wrot= e: > >> Miles has point, though. His views on the denpa bu are pretty >> interesting. >> The approximants in [uV] and [iV], IPA /j/ and /w/, can be consonantal, >> which frees them of denpa bu requirement as explained in the CLL, which >> does so because it considers them to be real vowels, which they aren't >> quite. >> >> When it comes to actually *writing* the denpa bu, I am a bad example. In >> informal IRC chat, I practically never use it, but in my translations, I >> do. It depends simply on how hooked you are on audio-visual isomorphism, >> which Lojban doesn't actually even adhere to so much, says xorxes. I thi= nk >> that in more formal contexts, like translations or any official-ish writ= ten >> work, it's important to put them, but otherwise, in that regard, I see t= hem >> much like periods, commas or other punctuation in English: elidable when= no >> confusion results. >> >> mu'o mi'e la tsani >> >> >> On 10 May 2012 15:36, Michael Turniansky wrote: >> >>> Not to mention that the CLL specifically SAYS that "uV" and "iV" >>> require a pause before them. (Chapter 4.2) You are right, Miles, "Some >>> here seem to lack reading comprehension" >>> >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Jonathan Jones wrot= e: >>> >>>> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Miles Forster wrot= e: >>>> >>>>> .y bu is not "u". .u bu is. And the u in ui is not pronounced [u] bu= t >>>>> [w] which *is* a consonant. Some here seem to lack reading comprehens= ion. >>>>> It's annoying to argue with people who won't listen to what the other >>>>> person is saying. >>>>> Whether or not something is a vowel depends on the way it's >>>>> pronounced, not the way it's written. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I'm sorry, Miles, but you're wrong. There are no consonants in the >>>> Lojban word ".ui". Regardless of it's pronunciation as the leading vow= el of >>>> a diphthong, u is still a vowel. >>>> >>>> And just so we're clear, a diphthong is a sound represented by a >>>> combination of two vowels. In Lojban, the diphthong "ui" is pronounced= as >>>> in the English word "we", but that does not suddenly make the "u" in i= t a >>>> consonant. >>>> >>>> >>>>> mu'o >>>>> >>>>> Am 10.05.2012 02:12, schrieb Michael Turniansky: >>>>> >>>>> It is, and it always does require a pause in front of it. Miles is >>>>> wrong. >>>>> --gejyspa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 8:10 PM, =C1lvaro Vallejo wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> .uesai >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - "The initial period can never be omitted before vowels (if they ar= e >>>>>> *phonetically* vowels. {ui} =3D [wi], so no dot is necessary). " >>>>>> - "ui does not begin in a vowel. Therefore, no denpa bu is needed." >>>>>> >>>>>> Well... I am really shocked! How is it that "u" is not a vowel? It >>>>>> IS a vowel or I should start learning again Lojban from zero: it's n= ame is >>>>>> indeed ybu, isn't it? >>>>>> (Chapter 1 of Lojban for beginners, Chapter 2 of CLL)... >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/AINBgk5ryt8J. >>>>>> >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m >>>>> . >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna >>>>> .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m >>>>> . >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com= . >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --20cf3079c10066978404bfc89429 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No one, as far as I know ever said it was.

In my post, I= said that I consider it to be *like* English punctuation, where simsa3 is = that it can be omitted when no confusion results. I never said that denpa b= u *is* punctuation.

On 11 May 2012 16:16, Jonathan Jones <eyeon= us@gmail.com> wrote:
denpa bu is not punctuation.

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Jacob Erringto= n <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:
Miles has point, though. His views on the de= npa bu are pretty interesting.=A0
The approximants in [uV] and [iV], IP= A /j/ and /w/, can be consonantal, which frees them of denpa bu requirement= as explained in the CLL, which does so because it considers them to be rea= l vowels, which they aren't quite.

When it comes to actually *writing* the denpa bu, I am = a bad example. In informal IRC chat, I practically never use it, but in my = translations, I do. It depends simply on how hooked you are on audio-visual= isomorphism, which Lojban doesn't actually even adhere to so much, say= s xorxes. I think that in more formal contexts, like translations or any of= ficial-ish written work, it's important to put them, but otherwise, in = that regard, I see them much like periods, commas or other punctuation in E= nglish: elidable when no confusion results.

mu'o mi'e la tsani


On 10 May 2012 15:36, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky= @gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 Not to mention that the= CLL specifically SAYS that "uV" and "iV" require a pau= se before them. (Chapter 4.2) =A0You are right, Miles, "Some here seem= to lack reading comprehension"

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa



On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus= @gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May = 10, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Miles Forster <m3o@plasmatix.com> wrote= :
=20 =20 =20
.y bu is not "u". .u bu is. And the u in ui is not pronounced= [u] but [w] which *is* a consonant. Some here seem to lack reading comprehension. It's annoying to argue with people who won't lis= ten to what the other person is saying.
Whether or not something is a vowel depends on the way it's pronounced, not the way it's written.
<= div>
I'm sorry, Miles, but you're wrong. There are no consonants= in the Lojban word ".ui". Regardless of it's pronunciation a= s the leading vowel of a diphthong, u is still a vowel.

And just so we're clear, a diphthong is a sound represented by a co= mbination of two vowels. In Lojban, the diphthong "ui" is pronoun= ced as in the English word "we", but that does not suddenly make = the "u" in it a consonant.
=A0
mu'o

Am 10.05.2012 02:12, schrieb Michael Turniansky:
=A0 It is, and it always does require a pause in front of it. =A0Miles is wrong.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa


On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 8:10 PM, =C1lvaro Vallejo <avallejor@gmail.com> wrote:
.uesai


- "The initial period can never be omitted before vowe= ls (if they are phonetically vowels. {ui} =3D [wi], so no dot is necessary). "
- "ui does not begin in a vowel. Therefore, no denpa bu is needed."

Well... I am really shocked! How is it that "u" is = not a vowel? It IS a vowel or I should start learning again Lojban from zero: it's name is indeed ybu, isn't it?<= br> (Chapter 1 of Lojban for beginners, Chapter 2 of CLL)...

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--



-= -
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

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