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Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 00:48:45 -0600
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj3JwT_90LmEpe3URYA6nqzKmEYSSZ+6O0waBENXXrTe3A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: What can you do with Lojban that you can't
 do with English?
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 11:27 PM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 17 Maj, 05:55, Pierre Abbat <p...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
>> > On Wednesday 16 May 2012 20:19:41 Lindar wrote:
>> >
>> > > We have red chickens and cows.
>> > > Are the cows red?
>> >
>> > Also, "we" =3D "I and who else?"
>> >
>> > mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci .e lo bakni =97 doesn't say what color the c=
ows
>> are.
>> > mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci je bakni =97 false, as no chicken is a cow.
>>
>> Aionys says that it doesn't make that assertion. According to him, "we
>> are a husband and a wife" is {mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe}. So even
>> such simple things like logical connectives are controversial in
>> Lojban... uinai
>>
>
> It's aionys, not Aionys, and I don't say that. {lo} is not explicit about
> whether we are speaking of individuals or masses/sets, so it is possible =
to
> have either interpretation. There is nothing controversial about this.
>
> To quote the tiki page on xorlo:
>
> lo's inner quantifier indicates the number of things we're talking about,
> but in a slightly different fashion. "mu lo bakni cu bevri lo pipno" mean=
s
> "Five cows each carried a piano individually". "lo mu bakni cu bevri lo
> pipno" is ambiguous as to whether they did it individually or as a group.
> To be clear about group-ness, use loi and friends.
>

Also, I feel I should point out that in {mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe}, it
is obvious that "lo nakspe je fetspe" is implicitly referring to a group
because of "mi'a", and for no other reason.


>
>
>>  > mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci .e lo xunre bakni =97 the cows are red.
>> > mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci ja bakni =97 they're all red, but whether
>> they're all
>> > chickens or all cows or a mix isn't stated.
>>
>> What about {mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci joi bakni}?
>>
>> mu'o mi'e ianek
>>
>> > Pierre
>> > --
>> > loi mintu se ckaji danlu cu jmaji
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
>


--=20
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Jonathan Jones=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im">On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 11:27 =
PM, ianek <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:janek37@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">janek37@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex">

<div><br>
<br>
On 17 Maj, 05:55, Pierre Abbat &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:p...@phma.optus.nu" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">p...@phma.optus.nu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; On Wednesday 16 May 2012 20:19:41 Lindar wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; We have red chickens and cows.<br>
&gt; &gt; Are the cows red?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Also, &quot;we&quot; =3D &quot;I and who else?&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; mi&#39;a ponse lo xunre jipci .e lo bakni =97 doesn&#39;t say what col=
or the cows are.<br>
&gt; mi&#39;a ponse lo xunre jipci je bakni =97 false, as no chicken is a c=
ow.<br>
<br>
</div>Aionys says that it doesn&#39;t make that assertion. According to him=
, &quot;we<br>
are a husband and a wife&quot; is {mi&#39;a me lo nakspe je fetspe}. So eve=
n<br>
such simple things like logical connectives are controversial in<br>
Lojban... uinai<br></blockquote></div><div><br>It&#39;s aionys, not Aionys,=
 and I don&#39;t say that. {lo} is not explicit about whether we are speaki=
ng of individuals or masses/sets, so it is possible to have either interpre=
tation. There is nothing controversial about this.<br>

<br>To quote the tiki page on xorlo:<br><br>lo&#39;s inner quantifier indic=
ates the number of things we&#39;re talking=20
about, but in a slightly different fashion.  &quot;mu lo bakni cu bevri lo=
=20
pipno&quot; means &quot;Five cows each carried a piano individually&quot;. =
 &quot;lo mu=20
bakni cu bevri lo pipno&quot; is ambiguous as to whether they did it=20
individually or as a group.  To be clear about group-ness, use loi and=20
friends.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Also, I feel I should point o=
ut that in {mi&#39;a me lo nakspe je fetspe}, it is obvious that &quot;lo n=
akspe je fetspe&quot; is implicitly referring to a group because of &quot;m=
i&#39;a&quot;, and for no other reason.<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div>=A0</div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex">

<div>
&gt; mi&#39;a ponse lo xunre jipci .e lo xunre bakni =97 the cows are red.<=
br>
&gt; mi&#39;a ponse lo xunre jipci ja bakni =97 they&#39;re all red, but wh=
ether they&#39;re all<br>
&gt; chickens or all cows or a mix isn&#39;t stated.<br>
<br>
</div>What about {mi&#39;a ponse lo xunre jipci joi bakni}?<br>
<br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e ianek<br>
<div><div><br>
&gt; Pierre<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; loi mintu se ckaji danlu cu jmaji<br>
<br>
--<br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; group.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@goo=
glegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-begi=
nners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban-beginners+un=
subscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
For more options, visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div class=3D"HO=
EnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#=
39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(=
Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>

<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l=
uk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. =
:D )<br>
<br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



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