Received: from mail-we0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]:50905) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SibT1-0003Xd-P5; Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:18:25 -0700 Received: by werm13 with SMTP id m13sf2088122wer.16 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:18:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2//Ru6s1HizM+/UI6dyqUw+K+qhLv/L/7uqKqc4me/E=; b=p33jonrtO+IrrCdZTXQtgIry3Phkp3gdBaBHniwu9n/EJWMCc9tu1JxAYe/2IRwQ/3 dD0X88hrk7unG/zu2fj4Q7f+/43Wp1KfOwi+lpGeVMJvwL9I3RwYXNMjMKlYp9T9suWe PU5ksQtRJ+wwPKY12CWvPXcV3kl8AF7pkzE1M= Received: by 10.216.135.28 with SMTP id t28mr135957wei.81.1340500689412; Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:18:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.104.161 with SMTP id gf1ls976261wib.1.canary; Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.105.99 with SMTP id gl3mr1016567wib.2.1340500688145; Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.105.99 with SMTP id gl3mr1016566wib.2.1340500688126; Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f177.google.com (mail-wi0-f177.google.com [209.85.212.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ei10si988613wid.0.2012.06.23.18.18.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.177; Received: by wibhm11 with SMTP id hm11so1342940wib.12 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:18:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.138 with SMTP id k10mr3958233wep.222.1340500687937; Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.195.211 with HTTP; Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:18:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:18:07 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] my first translation From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d58a90535f1904c32da321 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --0016e6d58a90535f1904c32da321 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 "Lower your shields and surrender your ships." We can't use {nitmau}, because that means "x1 is lower than x2...", and the English "lower" is used in this case to mean "Cease providing power to...". So, as in most translations, we have to translate the /meaning/, not the words. From the meaning, we need {sisti} "x1 ceases x2", {sabji} "x1 provides x2 to x3", and {nejni} "x1 is energy...". Now we need to translate "shield". {bandu} doesn't work, because the x1 and x3 of "x1 protects x2 from x3" are events, and shields are an object. So we're going to on a completely different track. The shields are a protective shell made of energy, so we'll use {nejni} and {calku} "x1 is a shell around x2 made of x3". On to "surrender you ships". We have {randa} "x1 yields to x2...", but that's not precisely correct. The Borg are saying to surrender /the ships/, which means they are saying to give the ships to the Borg. Which means {dunda} "x1 gives x2 to x3" needs to be in there as well. So we'll make up the lujvo {radydu'a} "d1=r1 surrenders d2 to d3=r2..." and use that. For ship, we have {bloti} "x1 is a vessel...", but that word is understood as referring to seafaring vehicles, and we're talking about space-faring ones. Lojban "space" is {kensa} "x1 is outer space near celestial body x2", so again we'll make a new lujvo {keslo'i} "x1 is a space vessel...". Now that we've got all the concepts translated, it's time to put them together. In the English the Borg are ordering two things, using "and", we can do the same thing with {gi'e}, or {ge...gi}: {ko sisti lonu sabji lo nejni lo calku be fi lo nejni kei gi'e radydu'a lo do keslo'i} That's a bit long, so let's use a neat trick to shorten it up a bit. Typically, a lujvo such as {rodbo'e} either means {... brode lo broda ...} or {... brode je broda ...}. We can use that to our advantage, and turn {... sabji lo nejni ...} into {... nensabji ...}, and {calku fi lo nejini} -> {nejni je calku} -> {nencalku}, resulting in: {ko sisti lonu nensabji lo nencalku kei gi'e radydu'a lo do keslo'i} Okay, so now we have the first two sentences translated: "We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships." {mi'a selcme zo.borg. ko sisti lonu nensabji lo nencalku kei gi'e radydu'a lo do keslo'i} I'll leave it at this for now, and tackle the next sentence in another email. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0016e6d58a90535f1904c32da321 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Lower your shields and s= urrender your ships."

We can't use {nitmau}, because that m= eans "x1 is lower than x2...", and the English "lower" = is used in this case to mean "Cease providing power to...". So, a= s in most translations, we have to translate the /meaning/, not the words. = From the meaning, we need {sisti} "x1 ceases x2", {sabji} "x= 1 provides x2 to x3", and {nejni} "x1 is energy...".

Now we need to translate "shield". {bandu} doesn't work, = because the x1 and x3 of "x1 protects x2 from x3" are events, and= shields are an object. So we're going to on a completely different tra= ck. The shields are a protective shell made of energy, so we'll use {ne= jni} and {calku} "x1 is a shell around x2 made of x3".

On to "surrender you ships". We have {randa} "x1 yields = to x2...", but that's not precisely correct. The Borg are saying t= o surrender /the ships/, which means they are saying to give the ships to t= he Borg. Which means {dunda} "x1 gives x2 to x3" needs to be in t= here as well. So we'll make up the lujvo {radydu'a} "d1=3Dr1 s= urrenders d2 to d3=3Dr2..." and use that. For ship, we have {bloti} &q= uot;x1 is a vessel...", but that word is understood as referring to se= afaring vehicles, and we're talking about space-faring ones. Lojban &qu= ot;space" is {kensa} "x1 is outer space near celestial body x2&qu= ot;, so again we'll make a new lujvo {keslo'i} "x1 is a space = vessel...".

Now that we've got all the concepts translated, it's time to pu= t them together. In the English the Borg are ordering two things, using &qu= ot;and", we can do the same thing with {gi'e}, or {ge...gi}:

{ko sisti lonu sabji lo nejni lo calku be fi lo nejni kei gi'e rady= du'a lo do keslo'i}

That's a bit long, so let's use = a neat trick to shorten it up a bit. Typically, a lujvo such as {rodbo'= e} either means {... brode lo broda ...} or {... brode je broda ...}. We ca= n use that to our advantage, and turn {... sabji lo nejni ...} into {... ne= nsabji ...}, and {calku fi lo nejini} -> {nejni je calku} -> {nencalk= u}, resulting in:

{ko sisti lonu nensabji lo nencalku kei gi'e radydu'a lo do kes= lo'i}


Okay, so now we have the first two sentences translate= d:

"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ship= s."
{mi'a selcme zo.borg. ko sisti lonu nensabji lo nencalku kei gi'e r= adydu'a lo do keslo'i}

I'll leave it at this for now, an= d tackle the next sentence in another email.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Lu= ke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--0016e6d58a90535f1904c32da321--