Received: from mail-qa0-f56.google.com ([209.85.216.56]:51125) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SoZvz-0006WB-N3; Tue, 10 Jul 2012 05:52:56 -0700 Received: by qaas11 with SMTP id s11sf181730qaa.1 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2012 05:52:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=YYWVm8r9eEZYko9O90UIlyh97jSao4nFEw0pUn4m8fM=; b=cljz7fDe1rETYVsIMBEmjrSJroIxfdk2fGoXfe5fO5w1Ev6ojZYicS+STgXrLB+A78 wzvj7oQdHk9AdaFofwPd66vu1SuY/55iZrTZPWt2mO/LtxZuw0yI/UOm5xHzxsOhgO+w PUp1F5fGf7ndK+9XC6llcrFernspiyKQeI0zU= Received: by 10.236.37.129 with SMTP id y1mr6458235yha.9.1341924766922; Tue, 10 Jul 2012 05:52:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.236.81.101 with SMTP id l65ls2746396yhe.5.gmail; Tue, 10 Jul 2012 05:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.191.40 with SMTP id f28mr86911000yhn.2.1341924766308; Tue, 10 Jul 2012 05:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.191.40 with SMTP id f28mr86910997yhn.2.1341924766289; Tue, 10 Jul 2012 05:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f42.google.com (mail-yw0-f42.google.com [209.85.213.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q35si11012580yhe.6.2012.07.10.05.52.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 10 Jul 2012 05:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.213.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.213.42; Received: by yhfq11 with SMTP id q11so13988515yhf.29 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2012 05:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.171.135 with SMTP id au7mr46373244oec.62.1341924765931; Tue, 10 Jul 2012 05:52:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.113.6 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jul 2012 05:52:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <0adc70ab-9070-49cd-8922-100e3da23ed5@googlegroups.com> From: ".arpis." Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:52:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Wedding ring engraving To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.213.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec55405a6fd1a4b04c47934d4 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --bcaec55405a6fd1a4b04c47934d4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm correcting you; {cmene} refer to names, e.g. {zo .arpis. cmene mi .i ji'a zo cipni cmene la'oi Paul}. They refer to the use/meaning of a word; they are also, more or less, language angostic. {cmevla} refers to a morphological construct, and is primarily useful in lojban; they must end in a consonant (and if you aren't on the dot side, can't contain "la", "lai", or "doi" at the start of a syllable). They must always be followed by a pause, and, like all lojban words, if they start with a vowel, they must be preceded by a pause. Elaborating on the rest of the discussion: Under current convention (dot side), whenever a cmevla is used in a cmene, (e.g. {la .mlat.}) it must be surrounded by pauses in speech, which some people take pains to indicate with the dot character. Pauses in names have no meaning (besides word separation) when brivla are used in them. On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:42 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:54 AM, Paul Predkiewicz < > paul.predkiewicz@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > It's not especially generic at all, although each argument can refer >> > to any entity actually called that. >> >> >> Yeah, that is what i meant. I know {la} doesn't mean "the", but more >> like "next-up: a name" >> I was just trying to say that as it is the statement {la cipni cu >> prami la mlatu} leaves alot of questions open... >> On the other hand it seems i tend to forget the following, a wedding >> ring engraved with >> {la cipni cu ze'e prami la mlatu} >> and another engraved with >> {la mlatu cu ze'e prami la cipni} >> pretty much adds a whole lot of context. so i guess even if only this >> sentence fits inside the rings, it would still be selfdesprict, since >> if you knew what a wedding ring is you could easily assume that the >> wearer is the person who loves the loved one. >> >> But when written down on the internet, it doesn't sound like much. >> >> Oh and, if you use gismu as a name, to form a valid sentence, do you >> need to put a full stop there {la cipni. cu prami}? Or is {la cipni cu >> prami} fine too? Or is it even {la .cipni. cu prami}? >> > > I can never accurately remember which are called cmene and which are > called cmevla, but let's assume eg. {la mlatu} are the ones called cmevla. > If I'm wrong, someone will correct me. > > Only cmene need to be surrounded by pauses. It is never wrong to put a > pause where one is not needed, but cmevla have no need of them at all, > however, that is why they need to be followed by ku/cu in some situations, > whereas cmene never do. > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --bcaec55405a6fd1a4b04c47934d4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm correcting you; {cmene} refer to names, e.g. {zo .arpis. cmene mi .= i ji'a zo cipni cmene la'oi Paul}. They refer to the use/meaning of= a word; they are also, more or less, language angostic. {cmevla} refers to= a morphological construct, and is primarily useful in lojban; they must en= d in a consonant (and if you aren't on the dot side, can't contain = "la", "lai", or "doi" at the start of a sylla= ble). They must always be followed by a pause, and, like all lojban words, = if they start with a vowel, they must be preceded by a pause.

Elaborating on the rest of the discussion:
Under current convention = (dot side), whenever a cmevla is used in a cmene, (e.g. {la .mlat.}) it mus= t be surrounded by pauses in speech, which some people take pains to indica= te with the dot character. Pauses in names have no meaning (besides word se= paration) when brivla are used in them.

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:42 AM, Jonathan Jo= nes <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:54 = AM, Paul Predkiewicz <paul.predkiewicz@gmail.com> w= rote:
> It's not especially generic at all, although each argument ca= n refer
> to any entity actually called that.


Yeah, that is what i meant. I know {la} doesn't mean "the&qu= ot;, but more
like "next-up: a name"
I was just trying to say that as it is the statement {la cipni cu
prami la mlatu} leaves alot of questions open...
On the other hand it seems i tend to forget the following, a wedding
ring engraved with
{la cipni cu ze'e prami la mlatu}
and another engraved with
{la mlatu cu ze'e prami la cipni}
pretty much adds a whole lot of context. so i guess even if only this=
sentence fits inside the rings, it would still be selfdesprict, since
if you knew what a wedding ring is you could easily assume that the
wearer is the person who loves the loved one.

But when written down on the internet, it doesn't sound like much.

Oh and, if you use gismu as a name, to form a valid sentence, do you
need to put a full stop there {la cipni. cu prami}? Or is {la cipni cu
prami} fine too? Or is it even {la .cipni. cu prami}?

I can never accurately remember which are called cm= ene and which are called cmevla, but let's assume eg. {la mlatu} are th= e ones called cmevla. If I'm wrong, someone will correct me.

Only cmene need to be surrounded by pauses. It is never wrong to put a = pause where one is not needed, but cmevla have no need of them at all, howe= ver, that is why they need to be followed by ku/cu in some situations, wher= eas cmene never do.
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno = be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke= , I am your father. :D )


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--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

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