Received: from mail-pb0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]:34218) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SpYsi-0000Uu-2V; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:57:37 -0700 Received: by pbbro2 with SMTP id ro2sf3602281pbb.16 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:57:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lpPNuS3A8UGxx9wDJLN2IygxSmF9rSCjUCiVemvnLhE=; b=cQQR5rZq9VyDClvQV6ZPjaYicuWaSxkn8HKOC6UWgkKM81aKMdKIm5Q+W4LG7xWssM zvgUj5rmBN5cvx7dE+Ab+dy4Q6V3gEsIZMIfVEJM545G5R+cxhTFLX35mSEb6CRWq2e1 bRbuFvlqeVsh3qeF61XrLhqrLjM/b5hSRAHKc= Received: by 10.50.202.38 with SMTP id kf6mr68887igc.0.1342159049905; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:57:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.178.73 with SMTP id cw9ls259284igc.4.canary; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.150.136 with SMTP id a8mr849441icw.4.1342159048971; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.82.3 with SMTP id e3msigy; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.202.36 with SMTP id kf4mr593880pbc.10.1342129335321; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:42:14 -0700 (PDT) From: mudri To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <4FFDFD65.5050507@plasmatix.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] lo nu pilno zo kakne ce'onai lo sucta MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: jammyatjammy@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_761_17514253.1342129334668" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_761_17514253.1342129334668 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Would that require a redefinition, something like "x1 is able to have/exhibit property x2", or would that be legal now? On Thursday, 12 July 2012 22:31:49 UTC+1, tsani wrote: > > On 12 July 2012 17:15, wrote: > > But that one doesn't say who the talker is. It says "I can (event-of > > unspecified-it talks)". Isn't that a problem? > > > > Depends on who you ask, but the general consensus is that the x1 of > kakne *must* find its way into the abstraction of kakne2. > In fact, a previous discussion about the properties of kakne2 led me > (and a handful of others) to believe that kakne2 should be a > ka-abstraction, where the {ce'u} refers to the value of kakne1. > > {mi kakne lo ka [ce'u] tavla} "I can talk." > > mu'o mi'e la tsani > > > On Wednesday, 11 July 2012 23:25:41 UTC+1, selpa'i wrote: > >> > >> Am 11.07.2012 19:50, schrieb jammyatjammy@gmail.com: > >> > le munvelski be zo kakne du la'e zoi gy x1 is able to do/be/capable > of > >> > doing/being x2 (event/state) under conditions x3 (event/state) gy .i > >> > xu zoi gy being gy nibyti'i lo du'u zo kakne kakne lo selpli secau zo > >> > nu to noi simsa nunpli fi tu'a le vi jufra toi > >> > > >> > The description of "kakne" is "x1 is able to do/be/capable of > >> > doing/being x2 (event/state) under conditions x3 (event/state)". Does > >> > "being" imply that "kakne" can be used without "nu" after it, and > >> > instead using a simple sumti (as I did above). > >> > > >> > Probably a simpler example is {mi kakne lo tavla be fo la lojban.} - > >> > "I can-be a talker in-language Lojban" .i xu di'u xagytadji lo nu > >> > pilno zo kakne > >> > >> It says "do/be" because those two are the same thing in Lojban. There > is > >> no to be or to do. That is, there is no difference between "I am a man" > >> {mi nanmu }and "I [do] walk" {mi cadzu}. It's always just an argument > >> (sumti) filling a place of a predicate (selbri). You still need an > >> abstraction for kakne. {mi kakne lo ka/nu tavla} means both "I can be a > >> talker" and "I can talk". > >> > >> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i > >> > >> -- > >> .i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u > >> .i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla > >> .i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata > >> > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/o_YJVA9fUjMJ. > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/aKgfzKJKY_8J. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. ------=_Part_761_17514253.1342129334668 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would that require a redefinition, something like "x1 is able to have/exhib= it property x2", or would that be legal now?

On Thursday, 12 July 20= 12 22:31:49 UTC+1, tsani wrote:
jammyatjammy@gmail.com> wrote:
> But that one doesn't say who the talker is. It says "I can (event-= of
> unspecified-it talks)". Isn't that a problem?
>

Depends on who you ask, but the general consensus is that the x1 of
kakne *must* find its way into the abstraction of kakne2.
In fact, a previous discussion about the properties of kakne2 led me
(and a handful of others) to believe that kakne2 should be a
ka-abstraction, where the {ce'u} refers to the value of kakne1.

{mi kakne lo ka [ce'u] tavla} "I can talk."

mu'o mi'e la tsani

> On Wednesday, 11 July 2012 23:25:41 UTC+1, selpa'i wrote:
>>
>> Am 11.07.2012 19:50, schrieb jammyatjammy@gmail.com:
>> > le munvelski be zo kakne du la'e zoi gy x1 is able to do/= be/capable of
>> > doing/being x2 (event/state) under conditions x3 (event/s= tate) gy .i
>> > xu zoi gy being gy nibyti'i lo du'u zo kakne kakne lo sel= pli secau zo
>> > nu to noi simsa nunpli fi tu'a le vi jufra toi
>> >
>> > The description of "kakne" is "x1 is able to do/be/capabl= e of
>> > doing/being x2 (event/state) under conditions x3 (event/s= tate)". Does
>> > "being" imply that "kakne" can be used without "nu" after= it, and
>> > instead using a simple sumti (as I did above).
>> >
>> > Probably a simpler example is {mi kakne lo tavla be fo la= lojban.} -
>> > "I can-be a talker in-language Lojban" .i xu di'u xagytad= ji lo nu
>> > pilno zo kakne
>>
>> It says "do/be" because those two are the same thing in Lojban= . There is
>> no to be or to do. That is, there is no difference between "I = am a man"
>> {mi nanmu }and "I [do] walk" {mi cadzu}. It's always just an a= rgument
>> (sumti) filling a place of a predicate (selbri). You still nee= d an
>> abstraction for kakne. {mi kakne lo ka/nu tavla} means both "I= can be a
>> talker" and "I can talk".
>>
>> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
>>
>> --
>> .i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u
>> .i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla
>> .i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beg= inners/-/o_YJVA9fUjMJ.
>
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl= =3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/l= ojban-beginners/-/aKgfzKJKY_8J.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
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