Received: from mail-gh0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]:44329) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SpcXe-0002Dx-K3; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 02:52:08 -0700 Received: by ghbf16 with SMTP id f16sf3569673ghb.16 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 02:52:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pipRCvajcg7/DEdKv3U6sVtbOJockZkzdaUHe2te0hk=; b=jkqTm0L622U54dngemUowaRav/cGv5IxWRAPkumFqzjp9+wrxknjnnYUHIes95JLTy qiwHroB4el5is9zJLRH7EXxTpeC6vsXUb61iKc7WoAbuTsrSQtHrTaaL2/0cNiEqI3/g Rb5+02OM/uaQb4cmoKqK9tB+EuPnqGPKj9WUU= Received: by 10.52.34.8 with SMTP id v8mr11792vdi.5.1342173120111; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 02:52:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.223.77 with SMTP id ij13ls1612354vcb.1.gmail; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 02:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.179.98 with SMTP id df2mr11544vdc.3.1342173119408; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 02:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 02:51:58 -0700 (PDT) From: mudri To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <4FFDFD65.5050507@plasmatix.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] lo nu pilno zo kakne ce'onai lo sucta MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: jammyatjammy@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jammyatjammy@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jammyatjammy@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_110_31484428.1342173118880" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_110_31484428.1342173118880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 It seems sensible; I might start using it. On Friday, 13 July 2012 07:13:48 UTC+1, tsani wrote: > > It doesn't require a redefinition because the types of places are not > static. In fact, it's legal, albeit shunned upon, to use concrete > sumti in abstraction places. Regardless, there's no redefinition > required if one wants to use a property place in kakne2. > > On 12 July 2012 17:42, mudri wrote: > > Would that require a redefinition, something like "x1 is able to > > have/exhibit property x2", or would that be legal now? > > > > > > On Thursday, 12 July 2012 22:31:49 UTC+1, tsani wrote: > >> > >> On 12 July 2012 17:15, wrote: > >> > But that one doesn't say who the talker is. It says "I can (event-of > >> > unspecified-it talks)". Isn't that a problem? > >> > > >> > >> Depends on who you ask, but the general consensus is that the x1 of > >> kakne *must* find its way into the abstraction of kakne2. > >> In fact, a previous discussion about the properties of kakne2 led me > >> (and a handful of others) to believe that kakne2 should be a > >> ka-abstraction, where the {ce'u} refers to the value of kakne1. > >> > >> {mi kakne lo ka [ce'u] tavla} "I can talk." > >> > >> mu'o mi'e la tsani > >> > >> > On Wednesday, 11 July 2012 23:25:41 UTC+1, selpa'i wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Am 11.07.2012 19:50, schrieb jammyatjammy@gmail.com: > >> >> > le munvelski be zo kakne du la'e zoi gy x1 is able to > do/be/capable > >> >> > of > >> >> > doing/being x2 (event/state) under conditions x3 (event/state) gy > .i > >> >> > xu zoi gy being gy nibyti'i lo du'u zo kakne kakne lo selpli secau > zo > >> >> > nu to noi simsa nunpli fi tu'a le vi jufra toi > >> >> > > >> >> > The description of "kakne" is "x1 is able to do/be/capable of > >> >> > doing/being x2 (event/state) under conditions x3 (event/state)". > Does > >> >> > "being" imply that "kakne" can be used without "nu" after it, and > >> >> > instead using a simple sumti (as I did above). > >> >> > > >> >> > Probably a simpler example is {mi kakne lo tavla be fo la lojban.} > - > >> >> > "I can-be a talker in-language Lojban" .i xu di'u xagytadji lo nu > >> >> > pilno zo kakne > >> >> > >> >> It says "do/be" because those two are the same thing in Lojban. > There > >> >> is > >> >> no to be or to do. That is, there is no difference between "I am a > man" > >> >> {mi nanmu }and "I [do] walk" {mi cadzu}. It's always just an > argument > >> >> (sumti) filling a place of a predicate (selbri). You still need an > >> >> abstraction for kakne. {mi kakne lo ka/nu tavla} means both "I can > be a > >> >> talker" and "I can talk". > >> >> > >> >> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> .i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u > >> >> .i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla > >> >> .i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata > >> >> > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> > To view this discussion on the web visit > >> > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/o_YJVA9fUjMJ. > >> > > >> > To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/aKgfzKJKY_8J. > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/7xSB1DJv7nsJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. ------=_Part_110_31484428.1342173118880 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems sensible; I might start using it.

On Friday, 13 July 2012 0= 7:13:48 UTC+1, tsani wrote:
It= doesn't require a redefinition because the types of places are not
static. In fact, it's legal, albeit shunned upon, to use concrete
sumti in abstraction places. Regardless, there's no redefinition
required if one wants to use a property place in kakne2.

On 12 July 2012 17:42, mudri <jammyatjammy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Would that require a redefinition, something like "x1 is able to
> have/exhibit property x2", or would that be legal now?
>
>
> On Thursday, 12 July 2012 22:31:49 UTC+1, tsani wrote:
>>
>> On 12 July 2012 17:15,  <jammyatjammy@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > But that one doesn't say who the talker is. It says "I ca= n (event-of
>> > unspecified-it talks)". Isn't that a problem?
>> >
>>
>> Depends on who you ask, but the general consensus is that the = x1 of
>> kakne *must* find its way into the abstraction of kakne2.
>> In fact, a previous discussion about the properties of kakne2 = led me
>> (and a handful of others) to believe that kakne2 should be a
>> ka-abstraction, where the {ce'u} refers to the value of kakne1= .
>>
>> {mi kakne lo ka [ce'u] tavla} "I can talk."
>>
>> mu'o mi'e la tsani
>>
>> > On Wednesday, 11 July 2012 23:25:41 UTC+1, selpa'i wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Am 11.07.2012 19:50, schrieb jammyatjammy@gmail.com:
>> >> > le munvelski be zo kakne du la'e zoi gy x1 is ab= le to do/be/capable
>> >> > of
>> >> > doing/being x2 (event/state) under conditions x3= (event/state) gy .i
>> >> > xu zoi gy being gy nibyti'i lo du'u zo kakne kak= ne lo selpli secau zo
>> >> > nu to noi simsa nunpli fi tu'a le vi jufra toi
>> >> >
>> >> > The description of "kakne" is "x1 is able to do/= be/capable of
>> >> > doing/being x2 (event/state) under conditions x3= (event/state)". Does
>> >> > "being" imply that "kakne" can be used without "= nu" after it, and
>> >> > instead using a simple sumti (as I did above).
>> >> >
>> >> > Probably a simpler example is {mi kakne lo tavla= be fo la lojban.} -
>> >> > "I can-be a talker in-language Lojban" .i xu di'= u xagytadji lo nu
>> >> > pilno zo kakne
>> >>
>> >> It says "do/be" because those two are the same thing = in Lojban. There
>> >> is
>> >> no to be or to do. That is, there is no difference be= tween "I am a man"
>> >> {mi nanmu }and "I [do] walk" {mi cadzu}. It's always = just an argument
>> >> (sumti) filling a place of a predicate (selbri). You = still need an
>> >> abstraction for kakne. {mi kakne lo ka/nu tavla} mean= s both "I can be a
>> >> talker" and "I can talk".
>> >>
>> >> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> .i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u
>> >> .i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkl= a
>> >> .i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata
>> >>
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google
>> > Groups
>> > "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> > To view this discussion on the web visit
>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/l= ojban-beginners/-/o_YJVA9fUjMJ.
>> >
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googleg= roups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.= com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beg= inners?hl=3Den.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beg= inners/-/aKgfzKJKY_8J.
>
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl= =3Den.

--
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To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/l= ojban-beginners/-/7xSB1DJv7nsJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
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