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Am 07.08.2012 20:47, schrieb Jonathan Jones:
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 4:50 AM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com 
> <mailto:janek37@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     You basically confirmed what I was saying, but you formally disagreed
>     with me. I don't understand. {se} acts on selbri, BAI, JA and some
>     other things, but not on NU. It acts on selbri built with NU, just
>     like in your examples.
>
>
> {se} acts on /anything/ with an x2. {du'u} is a NU which has an x2.

No. Despite the wording the CLL uses, a NU itself has no places at all.

>     On 7 Sie, 09:47, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com
>     <mailto:eyeo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>     > On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 1:15 AM, ianek <jane...@gmail.com
>     <mailto:jane...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>     > > "cmavo clusters" in jbovlaste are somewhat messy, from what
>     I've seen.
>     > >http://camxes.lojban.org/camxes/?text=se+du%27u+broda
>     >
>     > The {se} still acts on {du'u}, not {du'u broda}.
>

No, it doesn't. SE want to act on selbri (among other things like 
connectives and TAGs), but NU are *not* selbri. If they were, you could 
say *{ko'a du'u} or *{lo du'u ku}, but you can't.

>     >
>     > Whatever comes after a NU, until the {kei} (elided or not), is
>     "eaten" by
>     > the NU.
>     >
>     > So {[zo'e] du'u broda [kei] [zo'e]} means "x1 is predication "broda"
>     > expressed in sentence x2".
>     >
>     > {se} merely switches the x1 and x2 of {du'u}.
>
>     It's easier pe'i to see it as switching x1 and x2 of {du'u broda},
>     because places are primarily property of selbri, not abstraction
>     markers.
>
>
> Abstraction markers /are/ selbri. That's why they have places.

Abstract*ions* are selbri. abstract*ors* (which you call "abstraction 
markers") are not. They do not have places. All that a NU does is 
*convert*. It converts a bridi into a selbri. Then you can apply SE on 
that selbri. The selbri which was created by the NU, *that* has a place 
structure, depending on the NU used.

>     > So, for example:
>     >
>     > du'u mi nelci lo blanu kei zoi gy. I like Blue. .gy
>     >
>     > and
>     >
>     > .i zoi gy. I like Blue. .gy se du'u mi nelci lo blanu
>     >
>     > are equivalent.
>
>     Yes, and how it proves me wrong? I know all that, of course. {du'u mi
>     nelci lo blanu kei} is a selbri with two places and can be converted
>     with se. Why do we need to assume that SE act on NU if such assumption
>     is not needed to explain the grammar?
>
>
> Because it's not an assumption. It's a fact.

No, it's not.

>
>     > You may want to read http://dag.github.com/cll/11/7/
>
>     I love how you still treat me as a complete co'a cilre.
>
>
> No, I treat you like some who apparently needs to read the relevant 
> section of the official text on our language.

No comment.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- 
.i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u
.i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla
.i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 07.08.2012 20:47, schrieb Jonathan
      Jones:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAMKwHj3eBpj3amVMQUmFDcHWkpPSN-wv76rTuEMkaFOkfQ0xaQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 4:50 AM, ianek <span
          dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:janek37@gmail.com" target="_blank">janek37@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
        wrote:<br>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          You basically confirmed what I was saying, but you formally
          disagreed<br>
          with me. I don't understand. {se} acts on selbri, BAI, JA and
          some<br>
          other things, but not on NU. It acts on selbri built with NU,
          just<br>
          like in your examples.<br>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br>
          {se} acts on /anything/ with an x2. {du'u} is a NU which has
          an x2.<br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <tt>No. Despite the wording the CLL uses, a NU itself has no places
      at all.</tt><br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAMKwHj3eBpj3amVMQUmFDcHWkpPSN-wv76rTuEMkaFOkfQ0xaQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          On 7 Sie, 09:47, Jonathan Jones &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:eyeo...@gmail.com">eyeo...@gmail.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<br>
          <div class="im">&gt; On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 1:15 AM, ianek
            &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:jane...@gmail.com">jane...@gmail.com</a>&gt;
            wrote:<br>
            &gt; &gt; "cmavo clusters" in jbovlaste are somewhat messy,
            from what I've seen.<br>
            &gt; &gt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="http://camxes.lojban.org/camxes/?text=se+du%27u+broda"
              target="_blank">http://camxes.lojban.org/camxes/?text=se+du%27u+broda</a><br>
            &gt;<br>
            &gt; The {se} still acts on {du'u}, not {du'u broda}.<br>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <tt>No, it doesn't. SE want to act on selbri (among other things
      like connectives and TAGs), but NU are *not* selbri. If they were,
      you could say *{ko'a du'u} or *{lo du'u ku}, but you can't. </tt><br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAMKwHj3eBpj3amVMQUmFDcHWkpPSN-wv76rTuEMkaFOkfQ0xaQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div class="im">
            &gt;<br>
            &gt; Whatever comes after a NU, until the {kei} (elided or
            not), is "eaten" by<br>
            &gt; the NU.<br>
            &gt;<br>
            &gt; So {[zo'e] du'u broda [kei] [zo'e]} means "x1 is
            predication "broda"<br>
            &gt; expressed in sentence x2".<br>
            &gt;<br>
            &gt; {se} merely switches the x1 and x2 of {du'u}.<br>
            <br>
          </div>
          It's easier pe'i to see it as switching x1 and x2 of {du'u
          broda},<br>
          because places are primarily property of selbri, not
          abstraction<br>
          markers.<br>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br>
          Abstraction markers /are/ selbri. That's why they have places.<br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <tt>Abstract<b>ions</b> are selbri. abstract<b>ors</b> (which you
      call "abstraction markers") are not. They do not have places. All
      that a NU does is *convert*. It converts a bridi into a selbri.
      Then you can apply SE on that selbri. The selbri which was created
      by the NU, *that* has a place structure, depending on the NU used.
    </tt><br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAMKwHj3eBpj3amVMQUmFDcHWkpPSN-wv76rTuEMkaFOkfQ0xaQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div class="im">
            &gt; So, for example:<br>
            &gt;<br>
            &gt; du'u mi nelci lo blanu kei zoi gy. I like Blue. .gy<br>
            &gt;<br>
            &gt; and<br>
            &gt;<br>
            &gt; .i zoi gy. I like Blue. .gy se du'u mi nelci lo blanu<br>
            &gt;<br>
            &gt; are equivalent.<br>
            <br>
          </div>
          Yes, and how it proves me wrong? I know all that, of course.
          {du'u mi<br>
          nelci lo blanu kei} is a selbri with two places and can be
          converted<br>
          with se. Why do we need to assume that SE act on NU if such
          assumption<br>
          is not needed to explain the grammar?<br>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br>
          Because it's not an assumption. It's a fact.<br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <tt>No, it's not.</tt><br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAMKwHj3eBpj3amVMQUmFDcHWkpPSN-wv76rTuEMkaFOkfQ0xaQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div>&nbsp;<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div class="im">
            &gt; You may want to read <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="http://dag.github.com/cll/11/7/" target="_blank">http://dag.github.com/cll/11/7/</a><br>
            <br>
          </div>
          I love how you still treat me as a complete co'a cilre.<br>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br>
          No, I treat you like some who apparently needs to read the
          relevant section of the official text on our language.<br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <tt>No comment.<br>
      <br>
      mu'o mi'e la selpa'i</tt><br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
.i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u 
.i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla 
.i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata</pre>
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