Received: from mail-ia0-f189.google.com ([209.85.210.189]:53493)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncBCRZPH6MCMIPXRHKQMCRUBCUUGNQW@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1TNMPa-00039X-7H; Sun, 14 Oct 2012 04:31:18 -0700
Received: by mail-ia0-f189.google.com with SMTP id h11sf3629428iae.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Sun, 14 Oct 2012 04:31:07 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject
         :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=HIYQmiHuBUA+Z8twYtk9URZZeoKQnQciVD9WeGParqY=;
        b=UOTKdYr9ef7dPuSKefIXNaTMLoZQFkdPKPU1RgB7sKR2BI9/SFqvaFych6uNaCVAep
         FffAiSzibcfiQNGSi+MtjGhgoiCjssQjS9szS7M63wkxynQJd4AvsYupegSnaLcWWYVi
         R6HmLQJWeWeT1HrDE7Z0HE7c4jxhDz8TKEcNA0LZXCzTeOeeTfk8nJNfHt2HMe8mArJ1
         Kx3oizjyUo55gNM4jT7W1gVn+gpmcxH32LJbi+PHfLIP2UR+nPKFMLIo9TdSRFqvXa1U
         nSTLyyVGfPjm829z1oMGIj46uBFHZeNaT4RnBuZcjp7sUAcSde7gx37X90+b32MtN71n
         OBkA==
Received: by 10.236.198.80 with SMTP id u56mr1162954yhn.0.1350214267326;
        Sun, 14 Oct 2012 04:31:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.236.154.170 with SMTP id h30ls6580598yhk.7.gmail; Sun, 14 Oct
 2012 04:31:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.236.198.80 with SMTP id u56mr1162953yhn.0.1350214266971;
        Sun, 14 Oct 2012 04:31:06 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 04:31:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Message-Id: <a0699992-a16d-41be-8029-75767125b21e@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAOQ8VDXycTq7GQAZRcK=n4fNm95yLYT7dWJOYF56cRyhL8WiTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3dce2eae-f93d-4ce4-8965-3d6b61a7f7bf@googlegroups.com>
 <CAOQ8VDU+Vkr8=2gq+=K54WLu_1KfetK1JLTVmk6j0Ve6VUWvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMa68rcMBk=qZm+LDUVOoJgBuN5tObnZ3s260KcMZt82AZyzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd5019e4-c22e-4032-a475-6be1ba9b3f6f@googlegroups.com> <CALMa68onRS5T34VYzj9Q5WcfqgD-K17OiJX+gt=LO_o-jxpCKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9dcdebaf-2e65-44c4-9652-7e9b7f094589@googlegroups.com>
 <CAOQ8VDXycTq7GQAZRcK=n4fNm95yLYT7dWJOYF56cRyhL8WiTg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] I think I can use "kau" to express Japanese
 "ga" and "wa"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:googlegroups-manage+300742228892+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_1313_25691366.1350214266591"
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

------=_Part_1313_25691366.1350214266591
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1



On Saturday, October 13, 2012 5:47:42 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
>
> On 13 October 2012 01:04, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com <javascript:>>wrote:
>
>>
>> In the parallel thread I completely forgot to explain why I thought {kau} 
>> could be used for focus of any sentence.
>>
>> Look at the following example:
>> [.i paunai ma zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u makau zekri prenu .i mi 
>> djuno lo du'u la .djan. kau zekri prenu] .i la .djan. kau zekri prenu
>>
>>
> Yeah, I don't know why you'd think the kau gets preserved. {makau} acts as 
> one single unit, and gets replaced entirely when you want to insert the 
> "answer" to the indirect question.
>

This would make sense if {la djan. kau}  were absent in the CLL.
{kau} is glossed as "indirect question" and I can't see any questions in 
{la djan. kau}.

 
>
>>
>> Now imagine that we omit the sentences in brackets and let the context 
>> decide what's going on here.
>> Even then it's pretty simple to reconstruct first three sentences if only 
>> the last one is given.
>> But it just means that every time you use {kau} without any questions 
>> (even indirect questions), even then it doesn't mean that those questions 
>> are absent.
>>
>> They still EXIST. They are just omitted by the speaker but can be easily 
>> resurrected from the sentences that are actually said.
>> Really it would be very verbous to say 
>> *.i paunai ma zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u makau zekri prenu .i mi 
>> djuno lo du'u la .djan. kau zekri prenu.....................*
>>
>> It's just not worth it.
>>
>>
> Or we could just say {la djan zekri prenu}. In a real conversation, the 
> difference between the two sentences, with and without kau, is purely 
> textual, AFAICT. Using {kau} conveys no extra meaning, and therefore leads 
> me to believe that it's pointless to use. 
>  
>
>>
>> However, I doubt a bit that it is {kau}, not any other UI-cmavo that can 
>> serve this purpose.
>> Do we have a generalised UI-cmavo like we have {su'u} as a generalised 
>> NU-cmavo?
>> {ge'e} speaks about emotions  so it won't work.
>>
>>
> Guys, it's ba'e. Can we please stop trying to use kau for things other 
> than indirect questions? :)
>

I'm not sure if emphasis and topic-comment structure are always identical.
 

> If you want to say "It's John, and not someone else, that is the criminal" 
> then why are you all pining for {la djan kau co'e} rather than {ba'e la 
> djan co'e} ?
>  
>
>> Next, {paunai} is defined as a rhetorical question. I don't know exactly 
>> what "rhetorical" means. For me this glossword includes some emotions. But 
>> if {paunai} is just the opposite of {pau} and {pau} is just a question 
>> marker then for me {paunai=kau}.
>>
>>
> A rhetorical question is a sentence that appears to be a question, but 
> isn't actually asking anything. "Who could *do* such a thing!?" could be a 
> rhetorical question. {kau} is not for "questions that aren't questions"; 
> {kau} is for *indirect questions*. Those are both *different* things, and 
> therefore have *different* cmavo, albeit both UI.
>
> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/76RjAIGKOLIJ.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.


------=_Part_1313_25691366.1350214266591
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>On Saturday, October 13, 2012 5:47:42 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:<blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-lef=
t: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On 13 October 2012 01:04, gleki <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-m=
ailto=3D"UMW3kAEA7NwJ">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<br>In the parallel thread I completely forgot to explain why I thought {ka=
u} could be used for focus of any sentence.<div><br></div><div>Look at the =
following example:</div><div>[.i paunai ma zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u =
makau zekri prenu&nbsp;.i mi djuno lo du'u la .djan. kau zekri prenu]&nbsp;=
.i la .djan. kau zekri prenu</div>

<div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yeah, I don't know why you'=
d think the kau gets preserved. {makau} acts as one single unit, and gets r=
eplaced entirely when you want to insert the "answer" to the indirect quest=
ion.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This would make sense if {=
la djan. kau} &nbsp;were absent in the CLL.</div><div>{kau} is glossed as "=
indirect question" and I can't see any questions in {la djan. kau}.</div><d=
iv><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-le=
ft: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div></div><div><=
br></div><div>Now imagine that we omit the sentences in brackets and let th=
e context decide what's going on here.</div>

<div>Even then it's pretty simple to reconstruct first three sentences if o=
nly the last one is given.</div><div>But it just means that every time you =
use {kau} without any questions (even indirect questions), even then it doe=
sn't mean that those questions are absent.</div>

<div><br></div><div>They still EXIST. They are just omitted by the speaker =
but can be easily resurrected from the sentences that are actually said.</d=
iv><div>Really it would be very verbous to say&nbsp;</div><div><i>.i paunai=
 ma zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u makau zekri prenu&nbsp;.i mi djuno lo d=
u'u la .djan. kau zekri prenu.....................</i><br>

</div><div><br></div><div>It's just not worth it.</div><div><br></div></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>Or we could just say {la djan zekri prenu}. In =
a real conversation, the difference between the two sentences, with and wit=
hout kau, is purely textual, AFAICT. Using {kau} conveys no extra meaning, =
and therefore leads me to believe that it's pointless to use.&nbsp;</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div></div><div><br></div><=
div>However, I doubt a bit that it is {kau}, not any other UI-cmavo that ca=
n serve this purpose.</div>

<div>Do we have a generalised UI-cmavo like we have {su'u} as a generalised=
 NU-cmavo?</div><div>{ge'e} speaks about emotions &nbsp;so it won't work.</=
div><div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Guys, it's ba'e. Can we=
 please stop trying to use kau for things other than indirect questions? :)=
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm not sure if emphasis and t=
opic-comment structure are always identical.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left=
: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">

<div>If you want to say "It's John, and not someone else, that is the crimi=
nal" then why are you all pining for {la djan kau co'e} rather than {ba'e l=
a djan co'e} ?</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div></div><div>Next, {paunai} is defined as a rhetorical question. I don't=
 know exactly what "rhetorical" means. For me this glossword includes some =
emotions. But if {paunai} is just the opposite of {pau} and {pau} is just a=
 question marker then for me {paunai=3Dkau}.</div>

<div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>A rhetorical question is a =
sentence that appears to be a question, but isn't actually asking anything.=
 "Who could *do* such a thing!?" could be a rhetorical question. {kau} is n=
ot for "questions that aren't questions"; {kau} is for *indirect questions*=
. Those are both *different* things, and therefore have *different* cmavo, =
albeit both UI.</div>

<div><br></div><div>.i mi'e la tsani mu'o</div></div>
</blockquote>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/76RjAIGKOLIJ">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/l=
ojban-beginners/-/76RjAIGKOLIJ</a>.<br />=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



------=_Part_1313_25691366.1350214266591--