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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] I think I can use "kau" to express Japanese
 "ga" and "wa"
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On 14 October 2012 07:31, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Saturday, October 13, 2012 5:47:42 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
>
>> On 13 October 2012 01:04, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> In the parallel thread I completely forgot to explain why I thought
>>> {kau} could be used for focus of any sentence.
>>>
>>> Look at the following example:
>>> [.i paunai ma zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u makau zekri prenu .i mi
>>> djuno lo du'u la .djan. kau zekri prenu] .i la .djan. kau zekri prenu
>>>
>>>
>> Yeah, I don't know why you'd think the kau gets preserved. {makau} acts
>> as one single unit, and gets replaced entirely when you want to insert the
>> "answer" to the indirect question.
>>
>
> This would make sense if {la djan. kau}  were absent in the CLL.
> {kau} is glossed as "indirect question" and I can't see any questions in
> {la djan. kau}.
>
>
The CLL being wrong is new? :P


>
>>
>>>
>>> Now imagine that we omit the sentences in brackets and let the context
>>> decide what's going on here.
>>> Even then it's pretty simple to reconstruct first three sentences if
>>> only the last one is given.
>>> But it just means that every time you use {kau} without any questions
>>> (even indirect questions), even then it doesn't mean that those questions
>>> are absent.
>>>
>>> They still EXIST. They are just omitted by the speaker but can be easily
>>> resurrected from the sentences that are actually said.
>>> Really it would be very verbous to say
>>> *.i paunai ma zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du'u makau zekri prenu .i mi
>>> djuno lo du'u la .djan. kau zekri prenu.....................*
>>>
>>> It's just not worth it.
>>>
>>>
>> Or we could just say {la djan zekri prenu}. In a real conversation, the
>> difference between the two sentences, with and without kau, is purely
>> textual, AFAICT. Using {kau} conveys no extra meaning, and therefore leads
>> me to believe that it's pointless to use.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> However, I doubt a bit that it is {kau}, not any other UI-cmavo that can
>>> serve this purpose.
>>> Do we have a generalised UI-cmavo like we have {su'u} as a generalised
>>> NU-cmavo?
>>> {ge'e} speaks about emotions  so it won't work.
>>>
>>>
>> Guys, it's ba'e. Can we please stop trying to use kau for things other
>> than indirect questions? :)
>>
>
> I'm not sure if emphasis and topic-comment structure are always identical.
>
>

No, of course they aren't the same, and I didn't say they were. {zo'u} is
for topic-comment structure, and {ba'e} is for emphasis. The CLL is right
on that one.


>  If you want to say "It's John, and not someone else, that is the
>> criminal" then why are you all pining for {la djan kau co'e} rather than
>> {ba'e la djan co'e} ?
>>
>>
>>> Next, {paunai} is defined as a rhetorical question. I don't know exactly
>>> what "rhetorical" means. For me this glossword includes some emotions. But
>>> if {paunai} is just the opposite of {pau} and {pau} is just a question
>>> marker then for me {paunai=kau}.
>>>
>>>
>> A rhetorical question is a sentence that appears to be a question, but
>> isn't actually asking anything. "Who could *do* such a thing!?" could be a
>> rhetorical question. {kau} is not for "questions that aren't questions";
>> {kau} is for *indirect questions*. Those are both *different* things, and
>> therefore have *different* cmavo, albeit both UI.
>>
>> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>>
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 14 October 2012 07:31, gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gle=
ki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">

<br><br>On Saturday, October 13, 2012 5:47:42 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:<div cl=
ass=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:=
0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 13 October 2012 01:04=
, gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br>

<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<br>In the parallel thread I completely forgot to explain why I thought {ka=
u} could be used for focus of any sentence.<div><br></div><div>Look at the =
following example:</div><div>[.i paunai ma zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du&#3=
9;u makau zekri prenu=A0.i mi djuno lo du&#39;u la .djan. kau zekri prenu]=
=A0.i la .djan. kau zekri prenu</div>



<div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yeah, I don&#39;t know why =
you&#39;d think the kau gets preserved. {makau} acts as one single unit, an=
d gets replaced entirely when you want to insert the &quot;answer&quot; to =
the indirect question.</div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>This would make sense if {la d=
jan. kau} =A0were absent in the CLL.</div><div>{kau} is glossed as &quot;in=
direct question&quot; and I can&#39;t see any questions in {la djan. kau}.<=
/div>

<div class=3D"im"><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The=
 CLL being wrong is new? :P</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">
<div class=3D"im">
<div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:=
0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div></div><div><br></div><div>Now imagine that we omit the sentences in br=
ackets and let the context decide what&#39;s going on here.</div>

<div>Even then it&#39;s pretty simple to reconstruct first three sentences =
if only the last one is given.</div><div>But it just means that every time =
you use {kau} without any questions (even indirect questions), even then it=
 doesn&#39;t mean that those questions are absent.</div>



<div><br></div><div>They still EXIST. They are just omitted by the speaker =
but can be easily resurrected from the sentences that are actually said.</d=
iv><div>Really it would be very verbous to say=A0</div><div><i>.i paunai ma=
 zekri prenu .i mi djuno lo du&#39;u makau zekri prenu=A0.i mi djuno lo du&=
#39;u la .djan. kau zekri prenu.....................</i><br>



</div><div><br></div><div>It&#39;s just not worth it.</div><div><br></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>Or we could just say {la djan zekri prenu}.=
 In a real conversation, the difference between the two sentences, with and=
 without kau, is purely textual, AFAICT. Using {kau} conveys no extra meani=
ng, and therefore leads me to believe that it&#39;s pointless to use.=A0</d=
iv>



<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div></div><div><br></div><div=
>However, I doubt a bit that it is {kau}, not any other UI-cmavo that can s=
erve this purpose.</div>



<div>Do we have a generalised UI-cmavo like we have {su&#39;u} as a general=
ised NU-cmavo?</div><div>{ge&#39;e} speaks about emotions =A0so it won&#39;=
t work.</div><div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Guys, it&#39;s=
 ba&#39;e. Can we please stop trying to use kau for things other than indir=
ect questions? :)</div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I&#39;m not sure if emphasis a=
nd topic-comment structure are always identical.</div><div class=3D"im"><di=
v>=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, of course they aren&#=
39;t the same, and I didn&#39;t say they were. {zo&#39;u} is for topic-comm=
ent structure, and {ba&#39;e} is for emphasis. The CLL is right on that one=
.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">

<div>If you want to say &quot;It&#39;s John, and not someone else, that is =
the criminal&quot; then why are you all pining for {la djan kau co&#39;e} r=
ather than {ba&#39;e la djan co&#39;e} ?</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">



<div></div><div>Next, {paunai} is defined as a rhetorical question. I don&#=
39;t know exactly what &quot;rhetorical&quot; means. For me this glossword =
includes some emotions. But if {paunai} is just the opposite of {pau} and {=
pau} is just a question marker then for me {paunai=3Dkau}.</div>



<div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>A rhetorical question is a =
sentence that appears to be a question, but isn&#39;t actually asking anyth=
ing. &quot;Who could *do* such a thing!?&quot; could be a rhetorical questi=
on. {kau} is not for &quot;questions that aren&#39;t questions&quot;; {kau}=
 is for *indirect questions*. Those are both *different* things, and theref=
ore have *different* cmavo, albeit both UI.</div>



<div><br></div><div>.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o</div></div>
</blockquote>

<p></p></div>

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<br>=20
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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