Received: from mail-yh0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]:57440) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TNfnm-0002lx-45; Mon, 15 Oct 2012 01:13:34 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f61.google.com with SMTP id o21sf4291611yho.16 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2012 01:13:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=JHyZsXQNp/JBdLGwTshdkzy3iyHyK1qArybw4QTkp0s=; b=wPjfc6RI41073YMvkGKd1N13WcmwezdYqaWYiJXbDSD1us/JToS4qeHQ6SExtaYkPp qwbrRXn4p3V72trXtz8GFCyHBnxF/yf/xC+oTqMBnt/epcob4oyYWj/dadE0fPehKOro 3TcQe4e85ZZLW5UwphiFMzUIz3wDjfrabPgd0OMlFeOqagG1ZAg4HJXzP9+siOhHrixb TEEmqONvh5WNq1FqzgIv1CszdbH2xw02pUU5Axl9NTFXFTB5ocDph5PTkuzhaPHZPRDs Nwlo9k5ptWJ1fKnPs/lID4g3Gn47QDRV3eSUKaD5PQAFYkEt8nI/I12QxE3U4OkU1Hcg C07A== Received: by 10.68.233.130 with SMTP id tw2mr2293489pbc.12.1350288803278; Mon, 15 Oct 2012 01:13:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.194.202 with SMTP id hy10ls17731667pbc.0.gmail; Mon, 15 Oct 2012 01:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.135.103 with SMTP id pr7mr2260050pbb.7.1350288802759; Mon, 15 Oct 2012 01:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 01:13:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Lindar To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <0f56622e-17b4-4c77-b38b-2c04c038a81a@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <102e5c38-2f2d-4bc4-a40a-84027b0b0a48@googlegroups.com> References: <6be716be-fc45-4938-9ed8-8242e26b6483@googlegroups.com> <60259ad5-0d81-4a69-8224-dc7f11318f42@googlegroups.com> <506ae6c7-1a98-46de-8241-68c118fa0eaf@googlegroups.com> <760778e4-b6bb-4e86-92b9-4edc8c573625@googlegroups.com> <102e5c38-2f2d-4bc4-a40a-84027b0b0a48@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Place structure vs. grammatical morphemes MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: lindarthebard@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_407_21658126.1350288802410" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_407_21658126.1350288802410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'd also like to point out that the set of place structures is fairly regular. Compare: dunda, cpacu, lebna Compare: klama, litru, cliva, plipe, cpare, muvdu Compare: gerku, finpe, mlatu, cipni, tricu, danlu, bakni Compare: djuno, morji, cilre Compare: kerfa, xance, stedu, kerlo, rebla, kanla, birka, etc. You start to see similarities. So it's not like every word has a completely arbitrary place structure. When you start to acquire more vocabulary you stop memorising individual places and start memorising what 'type' of place structure it has. I don't really remember the full place structure of {morji}, I just know that it's got the place structure for knowledge things. If it's a part of something, undoubtedly it's going to be "x1 is the $thing of x2" be it arm, leg, face, etc. If it's a living thing, it's going to be "x1 is a $thing of species/variety x2". If it has to do with goods moving then likely it's going to be "x1 = active agent, x2 = object = x3 = passive agent" and then an extra place maybe if there's something else intrinsic to the process (like {vecnu}). You can bet that if something is moving then it's going to be "x1 = thing, x2 = destination, x3 = origin" and then a bunch of other places for whatever with some sort of variation on the theme as necessary, such as bumping everything down one place to make room for the carrier in {bevri}. So instead of tagging a thematic role for every single word, the selbri have their own preconfigured and regular shapes. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/LjSo73oN97sJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. ------=_Part_407_21658126.1350288802410 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd also like to point out that the set of place structures is fairly regul= ar.

Compare: dunda, cpacu, lebna
Compare: klam= a, litru, cliva, plipe, cpare, muvdu
Compare: gerku, finpe, mlatu= , cipni, tricu, danlu, bakni
Compare: djuno, morji, cilre
Compare: kerfa, xance, stedu, kerlo, rebla, kanla, birka, etc.
You start to see similarities. So it's not like every = word has a completely arbitrary place structure. When you start to acquire = more vocabulary you stop memorising individual places and start memorising = what 'type' of place structure it has. I don't really remember the full pla= ce structure of {morji}, I just know that it's got the place structure for = knowledge things. If it's a part of something, undoubtedly it's going to be= "x1 is the $thing of x2" be it arm, leg, face, etc. If it's a living thing= , it's going to be "x1 is a $thing of species/variety x2". If it has to do = with goods moving then likely it's going to be "x1 =3D active agent, x2 =3D= object =3D x3 =3D passive agent" and then an extra place maybe if there's = something else intrinsic to the process (like {vecnu}). You can bet that if= something is moving then it's going to be "x1 =3D thing, x2 =3D destinatio= n, x3 =3D origin" and then a bunch of other places for whatever with some s= ort of variation on the theme as necessary, such as bumping everything down= one place to make room for the carrier in {bevri}. So instead of tagging a= thematic role for every single word, the selbri have their own preconfigur= ed and regular shapes.

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