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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] "Should" and "would"
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Am 28.10.2012 21:56, schrieb mudri:
> {.ei} fits sometimes (in the {.eiro'a} sense), but I was primarily
> thinking of the use of "should have done x" to mean "x would have
> optimised your position (in life, &c.)".

You're probably reading the old definition of {.ei}. Its use has changed=20
somewhat to make it more useful so that the three examples I gave are=20
now exactly what you want, that is, they aren't really about obligation.

> To take "position" literally,
> you could say whilst reviewing a chess match "you should have taken that
> bishop with your knight, rather than your pawn". There is no obligation
> to do this (the erring player could still have won); it is more of a
> suggestion.

.ei lo do xirma .e nai lo do sonci pu catra lo va xanto
Your knight and not your pawn should have killed that bishop.

(I happen to have played chess in Lojban a few times :) )

> {va'o} seems to be a good fit for if... would statements. I've come
> across the fact that abstractions are not necessarily true before. As
> for {da'i} I haven't understood before what it means. It's listed as
> "supposing", but, as a UI, it can't create the structures I'd expect
> from "supposing". To me, "supposing" is usually used in "supposing that
> x, y", where x is the supposed fact and y is the main statement. But I
> suppose (zo'o) that your explanation makes sense.

Whatever you mark with {da'i} (and that can be either the entire=20
sentence or just a part of it depending on where you place it) becomes=20
counterfactual. It's a supposed situation, just like a phrase that=20
contains "would". Generally, cmavo definitions can't be taken by=20
themselves, there is usually quite a bit of history behind them. It=20
helps to check those past discussions (and their conclusions) and to=20
compare usage as well.

>
> I don't understand how you've used {mu'ei}. How can we claim things
> about every alternate history? What if in one of them you had different
> parents, and inherited a few selfishness genes (assuming that this
> alternate person could be considered "you", and not a child from that
> other parent - be'o - who was not born either).

PA mu'ei =3D=3D TAG

The things you listed above are all things we can tag with {mu'ei} as=20
being part of the alternate world(s) we're talking about. The second=20
example I gave shows this, let me repeat it and add an interlinear gloss:

mi no mu'ei lo du'u do mi slabu cu na djica lo nu mi do speni
I, in zero worlds in which it is the case that I know you, will not want=20
to marry you.
(Which more or less means "I would want to marry you no matter what")

This is a strong statement, but since it's about love, I think it's a=20
fitting means to express one's strong feelings.
It is true that it could include worlds in which you have a different=20
backstory, the only thing that must be the case is "lo du'u do mi=20
slabu". You could go for a complete specification of all the=20
predications that hold in the world you are talking about, but that=20
would be difficult. Consider the example sentence to use an incomplete=20
specification. The speaker only felt the need to mention this one=20
predication.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--=20
do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
    .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
    .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
    .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku


.

--=20
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