Received: from mail-qc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:60185)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncBCV3TMWBWMCRBBFX7GCAKGQEM7ERKHA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1TXBRj-0001m3-Sf; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 05:50:09 -0800
Received: by mail-qc0-f189.google.com with SMTP id c11sf3726618qca.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 05:49:57 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-pair-authenticated:message-id:date:from
         :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post
         :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe
         :content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=K28hxIFeakI2CKeVi2ooTMZ9VpcDtKu5L30XTZSvCNs=;
        b=HCyLqfAyQDsVXANOQQR+9Hp6ZqdqABzA4wdi93beTubp64/CDP7+EiKtzo0dAB/oNt
         IBqujWccVYw5GMV8vZnwqpoaFmrRyMoF2ziYNFS9Bv2pqRHZ8FJkPhT4JDOolM33Stm1
         TqI3/FtWJgORlJ6LoAUFveW0k2wEMg2YvHEKxDY7AR3eY5/lqTth1dIkxUNwp2fepQpQ
         Am+PrIhsBvOiL6vw41Ld8hoKc6s0BAd9IfeRnukIgD+78Qa/vEOCZzFeZ+NQzcjYdsM+
         KCFv5jpYCLUBjEsqIViWSnqxnqN9TRPhJQ5a1t1NTLit4tvdoFNKj+l9Gq6Vp3TIJXb9
         3JYw==
Received: by 10.50.158.227 with SMTP id wx3mr2294888igb.2.1352555396872;
        Sat, 10 Nov 2012 05:49:56 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.50.183.129 with SMTP id em1ls2851934igc.0.gmail; Sat, 10 Nov
 2012 05:49:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.43.8.201 with SMTP id ot9mr9125284icb.10.1352555396199;
        Sat, 10 Nov 2012 05:49:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.43.8.201 with SMTP id ot9mr9125283icb.10.1352555396182;
        Sat, 10 Nov 2012 05:49:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from relay03.pair.com (relay03.pair.com. [209.68.5.17])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id o7si540258igl.0.2012.11.10.05.49.55;
        Sat, 10 Nov 2012 05:49:56 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.68.5.17 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of m3o@plasmatix.com) client-ip=209.68.5.17;
Received: (qmail 30981 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2012 13:49:54 -0000
Received: from 87.160.149.101 (HELO ?192.168.1.33?) (87.160.149.101)
  by relay03.pair.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2012 13:49:54 -0000
X-pair-Authenticated: 87.160.149.101
Message-ID: <509E5B85.4010503@plasmatix.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 14:49:57 +0100
From: selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] "Should" and "would"
References: <cc579ea9-aa40-4628-9c24-29dd6f7c6613@googlegroups.com> <508D9016.1020409@plasmatix.com> <CAKOEKkS8Wnj3wYNO044GOLnUjCSEesZk9kkLsC7e5=E2sfVQdw@mail.gmail.com> <1a4e8250-2c4c-428e-a89d-c2932db22160@googlegroups.com> <5cf31818-40f2-4792-811c-7c37edbbbf14@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <5cf31818-40f2-4792-811c-7c37edbbbf14@googlegroups.com>
X-Original-Sender: m3o@plasmatix.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com:
 209.68.5.17 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain
 of m3o@plasmatix.com) smtp.mail=m3o@plasmatix.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:googlegroups-manage+300742228892+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

Am 10.11.2012 11:25, schrieb mudri:
> What does {da'i} actually do? Is it a bit like {pau}, in that it's
> helpful but only the {nai} form changes the meaning?

No. Every sentence has an assertive force, or a mood. In simple terms, a=20
sentence is either asserted, or not asserted.

da'i removes the assertive force, that is, it produces a sentence that=20
is not claimed to be true by the speaker. There are many attitudinals=20
that change the mood of a sentence in Lojban; those classified as=20
"irrealis attitudinals". An example would be .a'o:

.a'o do mi vitke
I hope you visit me.

The speaker does not assert that "you visit me" actually=20
happens/happened, they are only expressing a hope about it happening.

You could call da'i the base irrealis, the neutral non-assertive=20
attitudinal, while all the other irrealis markers have some added=20
semantics involving hope, expectation, desire etc.

On the other hand, a sentence without da'i or an irrealis marker is=20
understood to be asserted. You can be exlicit about the assertive force=20
on this end of the spectrum and use ju'a, which is by default=20
(implicitly) present in any sentence that does not contain an irrealis=20
marker.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i


--=20
do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
    .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
    .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
    .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku


.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.