Received: from mail-ye0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]:47317) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TXC5f-0002KL-Jg; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 06:31:32 -0800 Received: by mail-ye0-f189.google.com with SMTP id q10sf3859292yen.16 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 06:31:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3DaqTYvMQ0TAGSMWwp06Vh74TbTFiLNa4BRkvqU1Brk=; b=f8QxYhm9hNoP87CP6kEutHqB944k9v7qwBlaoVjR/Oxc3PxX4BLN+uiTda8vYIe3VF mlqOl2Gmz9hLw9aj0/oRAL6ixrAjK4D9pMneIVhePr+s5DhEhX3g/JlHlEaTrQVbC4SP PaDhcMuIf18QXxVD3uE463sGvJvmC+yOYVFga4X0rFczGhp5r7VWYNcZLJctBj3CY2c0 VkF83hgtLMfZHwB587BCv9U+3XtP2TuYWsK+5QFfv7jlRPoWfkktZDzFv5O3jjGBvHNO RuJtfVievCTUmOK3TMFc2v1EarhCKrvi9+qXpyUddmoD82n1YDGfki64stVpEc5itraw iFmQ== Received: by 10.236.79.7 with SMTP id h7mr2027350yhe.2.1352557872608; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 06:31:12 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.236.198.39 with SMTP id u27ls7632678yhn.6.gmail; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 06:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.127.133 with SMTP id d5mr2039564yhi.1.1352557871104; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 06:31:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 06:31:10 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5cf31818-40f2-4792-811c-7c37edbbbf14@googlegroups.com> References: <508D9016.1020409@plasmatix.com> <1a4e8250-2c4c-428e-a89d-c2932db22160@googlegroups.com> <5cf31818-40f2-4792-811c-7c37edbbbf14@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] "Should" and "would" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_289_9538199.1352557870514" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_289_9538199.1352557870514 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 in my opinion da'i explicitly marks the bridi as hypothetical. da'inai explicitly marks the bridi as actual. Without both da'i and da'inai the bridi will have no such implications. On Saturday, November 10, 2012 2:25:33 PM UTC+4, mudri wrote: > > What does {da'i} actually do? Is it a bit like {pau}, in that it's helpful > but only the {nai} form changes the meaning? > > On Saturday, 10 November 2012 07:00:02 UTC, la gleki wrote: >> >> I should add that Lojban follows one interesting principle of language >> planning called "facultative precision". >> >> In short, >> 1. if you remove words from a Lojbanic utterance you slowly lose >> precision. >> 2. And vice versa, of course (by adding more words you prove that Lojban >> is the most precise language in the world, although, this second aspect of >> Lojban is unfortunately known much more than the 1st aspect). >> >> So e.g. when you remove {da'i} the sentence becomes more vague but it *does >> not get the opposite or another meaning*. >> >> The principle is described in the following article >> . >> No wonder they mention Loglan (however, they criticize it based on their >> subjective biased feelings). >> >> On Friday, November 9, 2012 10:41:21 PM UTC+4, Michael Turniansky wrote: >>> >>> I disagree that da'i is not needed below. Without it, the sentence >>> reads "Since I am I chicken, there is no road crossing." >>> --gejyspa (12 days behind in email. I had brought it down to >>> 9, but have been busy at work.) >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 4:05 PM, selpa'i wrote: >>> >>>> Sometimes, the "would" appears together with an if-clause, in which >>>> case a {da'i} isn't always needed: >>>> >>>> mi va'o lo nu [da'i] mi jipci cu na kuckla lo dargu >>>> If I was a chicken, I wouldn't cross the road. >>>> >>>> Here the {da'i} is not strictly needed, because the event tagged by >>>> va'o is not claimed by the speaker. The {da'i} can be used to add emphasis >>>> on the non-factualness of the sentence, however. >>>> >>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/JZOjrKPU2DAJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. ------=_Part_289_9538199.1352557870514 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable in my opinion 
da'i explicitly marks the bridi as hypothetical.
da'inai explicitly marks the bridi as actual.

Without both da'i and da'inai the bridi will have no such implicat= ions.

On Saturday, November 10, 2012 2:25:33 PM UTC+4, mudri wrote= :
What does {da'i} actually do?= Is it a bit like {pau}, in that it's helpful but only the {nai} form chang= es the meaning?

On Saturday, 10 November 2012 07:00:02 UTC, la gleki= wrote:
I should add that Lojban fo= llows one interesting principle of language planning called "facultative pr= ecision".

In short, 
1. if you remove wor= ds from a Lojbanic utterance you slowly lose precision. 
2. = And vice versa, of course (by adding more words you prove that Lojban is th= e most precise language in the world, although, this second aspect of Lojba= n is unfortunately known much more than the 1st aspect).

So e.g. when you remove {da'i} the sentence becomes more vague but i= t does not get the opposite or another meaning.

Th= e principle is described in the following article.
No won= der they mention Loglan (however, they criticize it based on their subjecti= ve biased feelings).

On Friday, November 9, 20= 12 10:41:21 PM UTC+4, Michael Turniansky wrote:
  I disagree that da'i is not needed belo= w.  Without it, the sentence reads "Since I am I chicken, there is no = road crossing."
          --gejyspa (12 days b= ehind in email. I had brought it down to 9, but have been busy at work.)


On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 4:05 PM, se= lpa'i <m...@plasmatix.com> wrote:
=
Sometimes, the "would" appears together with an if-clause, in which ca= se a {da'i} isn't always needed:

mi va'o lo nu [da'i] mi jipci cu na kuckla lo dargu
If I was a chicken, I wouldn't cross the road.

Here the {da'i} is not strictly needed, because the event tagged by va'o is= not claimed by the speaker. The {da'i} can be used to add emphasis on the = non-factualness of the sentence, however.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/l= ojban-beginners/-/JZOjrKPU2DAJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
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