Received: from mail-ia0-f189.google.com ([209.85.210.189]:47064) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Tc5Wv-0006VH-41; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:31:45 -0800 Received: by mail-ia0-f189.google.com with SMTP id b35sf4835624iac.16 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:31:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=rIvYiJx07zcMhjnZCBnDMFbfKU9hTovBmeQe6amEx94=; b=MvdLqSNGKDHApikd4Nssj0fTreITFzmUs9Mu06h0oryZwQsTx+8hT2X8SM9W5bejhS J8rs1F00K+pyaKnCmRBuVGuISRN7lq5cvN1YeTmwe1oftNEwWeERuq9qfpufnwBLVhkN bh6JVr0/L9JQAEMWC+j6D3j04nfyoGpWGMVNHUB+WTCEVWIUtqiEyBeowF6pcEteDS8c cEJBwPI/5nepdQUh2Yt9fN2KCuiWRK9kM58OrcA2beQIq0QOSuQyweJlDEZokg5kMJTN JoozU9QHmy5VOY610rdsWj2ODeAnITQBoDJ/PUJ27YUiPkk51Gb7m04yfga8J88FhRct Sgqw== Received: by 10.49.18.231 with SMTP id z7mr894294qed.25.1353724294211; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:31:34 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.133.170 with SMTP id pd10ls636292qeb.60.gmail; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.15.10 with SMTP id t10mr2045269vec.6.1353724293792; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.15.10 with SMTP id t10mr2045268vec.6.1353724293768; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-f172.google.com (mail-vc0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h20si576639vdg.3.2012.11.23.18.31.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.172; Received: by mail-vc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id fw7so10301610vcb.17 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.59.6.70 with SMTP id cs6mr8714971ved.60.1353724293654; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:31:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.89.84 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:31:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <461d8410-7da9-44ca-8714-33965aaf93ca@googlegroups.com> <2BBDCCF8-84D8-489C-BF2A-AE65AE35FBA1@gmail.com> <50B01EE7.6040307@plasmatix.com> From: Jacob Errington Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:31:13 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Question To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bf0effea5a8fa04cf347fc3 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7bf0effea5a8fa04cf347fc3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, the apostrophe is a letter in that it has a sound, namely the sound that an h would make. It only appears in very specific locations: between vowels. Due to its limited function, you can consider it like a second-class letter. As for selma'o names (selma'o means "grammatical class of a cmavo" and cmavo means "little word denoting structure") there is a convention that takes the most important or otherwise remarkable cmavo of that class and capitalizes it to form the selma'o name. Take for instance the class of cmavo that behave identically to {ui} (again, the curly braces here are used to quote lojban text, because using quotation marks might be mistaken for apostrophes, which as we are discussing, are also like letters). All the words that behave like {ui} are said to be in the class UI written in all caps. Now, what happens when the most remarkable cmavo contains an apostrophe? Well, there's the obvious solution of simply not capitalizing the apostrophe at all, but when the lojban parser was originally written, certain things in the code needed to be written in all caps and in the code it was not allowed to use apostrophes, so the lower-case h was chosen, because a lower-case letter among upper-case letters is somewhat like a second-class letter, which reflects the true nature of the apostrophe anyway. All that being said, the letter h proper only ever appears in selma'o names, which never actually appear in Lojban text (discussing selma'o *in* lojban is done by other methods). Equally, the letter h can appear when writing in all caps, but there is again no real purpose to that. Well, to be honest, as selpa'i said, capital letters are used to designate stress, which can only be irregular in cmevla. For instance, in French, the word "Paris" is stressed on the last syllable, whereas in Lojban, standard stress is on the second-to-last syllable. To account for irregular stress in these borrowed names, Lojban lets you indicate where the irregular stress is by a multitude of methods. It used to be preferred to use capital letters for this, giving {.paRIS.}, but these days using diacritics such as accent marks is more advisable, giving {.par=C3=ACs.}. If you have to borro= w a name that has the h sound in an irregularly stressed syllable, then you could capitalize it according to the old way (remember, nowadays using accent marks is better). That would produce something like {.pahArosin.}, but that is pretty unusual. So in sum, capital letters have an *extremely* limited use in Lojban. In fact, there're essentially no more reasons to ever use capital letters when actually writing *in* lojban. When talking *about* lojban, it can be useful to talk about grammatical classes of those little words, in which case it's unavoidable to write things like KOhA to refer to the entire class of small grammar words that behave identically to the major element {ko'a}. Historically, remember that using the all-caps for that purpose arose out of a convention based on the old source code for the parser. Finally, the apostrophe is indeed a letter, because is it indeed pronounced, but it has a limited function as a vowel separator: it can only appear between vowels (words can't start with it, for example). .i mi'e la tsani mu'o On 23 November 2012 20:28, Annie wrote: > I'm confused. Apostrophe is a letter? > > Sent from my iPod > > On Nov 23, 2012, at 7:12 PM, selpa'i wrote: > > > There seems to be some confusion here about the apostrophe and capital > letters in Lojban. > > > > Lojban does not use capital letters unless when you wish to mark a > stressed syllable, which is are written using capital letters. It's also > legal to only capitalize the vowel of that syllable. > > > > For example, dunda might be written DUNda or dUnda, but this is not > required. (There are also some other systems in use, like placing accents > above the vowel instead) > > > > Secondly, we've established already that instead of an h, Lojban uses > the apostrophe for reasons that have been given already. When writing > parsers for Lojban, in the program/code, you need to use names internally > that don't interfere with the syntax of the programming language. Usually= , > apostrophes can't be used, so in this case, and really only in this case, > the apostrophe is replaced by an actual h. You will never see this is > actual Lojban text, so you don't even need to worry about it. > > > > h is the capitalized version of ' simply because ' denotes an h sound, > and so "h" is the most obvious choice for a capital version of this lette= r. > > > > "mi'e la selpa'i" would be capitalized as "MIhE LA SELPAhI", in theory, > but again, this is not something that you need to do. It's just simply a > fact that ' and h are the lower and upper case versions of the same lette= r. > Many also prefer to keep the apostrophe even in words that are entirely > capitalized: "MI'E LA SELPA'I". > > > > mi'e la selpa'i mu'o > > > > -- > > do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u > > .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u > > ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu > > .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi > > gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi > > .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku > > > > > > . > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > > > > *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --047d7bf0effea5a8fa04cf347fc3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, the apostrophe is a letter in that it has a sound, namely the sound th= at an h would make. It only appears in very specific locations: between vow= els. Due to its limited function, you can consider it like a second-class l= etter.=C2=A0

As for selma'o names (selma'o means "grammatica= l class of a cmavo" and cmavo means "little word denoting structu= re") there is a convention that takes the most important or otherwise = remarkable cmavo of that class and capitalizes it to form the selma'o n= ame.=C2=A0

Take for instance the class of cmavo that behave identi= cally to {ui} (again, the curly braces here are used to quote lojban text, = because using quotation marks might be mistaken for apostrophes, which as w= e are discussing, are also like letters). All the words that behave like {u= i} are said to be in the class UI written in all caps.=C2=A0

Now, what happens when the most remarkable cmavo contai= ns an apostrophe? Well, there's the obvious solution of simply not capi= talizing the apostrophe at all, but when the lojban parser was originally w= ritten, certain things in the code needed to be written in all caps and in = the code it was not allowed to use apostrophes, so the lower-case h was cho= sen, because a lower-case letter among upper-case letters is somewhat like = a second-class letter, which reflects the true nature of the apostrophe any= way.

All that being said, the letter h proper only ever appe= ars in selma'o names, which never actually appear in Lojban text (discu= ssing selma'o *in* lojban is done by other methods). Equally, the lette= r h can appear when writing in all caps, but there is again no real purpose= to that.=C2=A0

Well, to be honest, as selpa'i said, capital letter= s are used to designate stress, which can only be irregular in cmevla. For = instance, in French, the word "Paris" is stressed on the last syl= lable, whereas in Lojban, standard stress is on the second-to-last syllable= . To account for irregular stress in these borrowed names, Lojban lets you = indicate where the irregular stress is by a multitude of methods. It used t= o be preferred to use capital letters for this, giving {.paRIS.}, but these= days using diacritics such as accent marks is more advisable, giving {.par= =C3=ACs.}. If you have to borrow a name that has the h sound in an irregula= rly stressed syllable, then you could capitalize it according to the old wa= y (remember, nowadays using accent marks is better). That would produce som= ething like {.pahArosin.}, but that is pretty unusual.=C2=A0

So in sum, capital letters have an *extremely* limited = use in Lojban. In fact, there're essentially no more reasons to ever us= e capital letters when actually writing *in* lojban. When talking *about* l= ojban, it can be useful to talk about grammatical classes of those little w= ords, in which case it's unavoidable to write things like KOhA to refer= to the entire class of small grammar words that behave identically to the = major element {ko'a}. Historically, remember that using the all-caps fo= r that purpose arose out of a convention based on the old source code for t= he parser. Finally, the apostrophe is indeed a letter, because is it indeed= pronounced, but it has a limited function as a vowel separator: it can onl= y appear between vowels (words can't start with it, for example).=C2=A0=

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o


On 23 November 2012 20:28, Annie = <park.annie@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:
I'm confused. Apostrophe is a letter?
Sent from my iPod

On Nov 23, 2012, at 7:12 PM, selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com> wrote:

> There seems to be some confusion here about the apostrophe and capital= letters in Lojban.
>
> Lojban does not use capital letters unless when you wish to mark a str= essed syllable, which is are written using capital letters. It's also l= egal to only capitalize the vowel of that syllable.
>
> For example, dunda might be written DUNda or dUnda, but this is not re= quired. (There are also some other systems in use, like placing accents abo= ve the vowel instead)
>
> Secondly, we've established already that instead of an h, Lojban u= ses the apostrophe for reasons that have been given already. When writing p= arsers for Lojban, in the program/code, you need to use names internally th= at don't interfere with the syntax of the programming language. Usually= , apostrophes can't be used, so in this case, and really only in this c= ase, the apostrophe is replaced by an actual h. You will never see this is = actual Lojban text, so you don't even need to worry about it.
>
> h is the capitalized version of ' simply because ' denotes an = h sound, and so "h" is the most obvious choice for a capital vers= ion of this letter.
>
> "mi'e la selpa'i" would be capitalized as "MIhE= LA SELPAhI", in theory, but again, this is not something that you nee= d to do. It's just simply a fact that ' and h are the lower and upp= er case versions of the same letter. Many also prefer to keep the apostroph= e even in words that are entirely capitalized: "MI'E LA SELPA'= I".
>
> mi'e la selpa'i mu'o
>
> --
> do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
> =C2=A0 .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
> ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
> =C2=A0 .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
> gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
> =C2=A0 .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku
>
>
> .
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>
>


*** This Email was sent by a student a= t School for the Blind.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--047d7bf0effea5a8fa04cf347fc3--