Received: from mail-ye0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]:57050) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TeWMJ-0006xy-KK; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:34:58 -0800 Received: by mail-ye0-f189.google.com with SMTP id r9sf795806yen.16 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:34:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:subject:references:from:x-mailer :in-reply-to:message-id:date:to:mime-version:x-virus-checked :x-gaggle-info:x-gaggle-sender-ref-id:x-gaggle-blocked-patterns :x-gaggle-aps-scores:x-gaggle-aps-scores:x-gaggle-ref-id :x-gaggle-unblocked-by:x-virus-checked:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Y7ZjSrmKv9ZcWS8dYdBKsQra60Dqout4/snc5kmbSCE=; b=v91QCT14XQtbVLxAONdy1PFzDG1wA9FGawL01MtTiCLn21Eu+gFvkGOcA4zzd1Ut+c PoGb80uYEbjo2QhDtyQWKld3K5jDDwHhi0mTDGgFmyT8gVABS6+cI2358bnsHaHGL5E8 gg2Yg3hzvd5qT0g1ukUOTO0/ZAOOZi6krUMBhpqBubXNxQqr3J9+O8G7U6z/P5TKW+gp 4J0iC8ANci9A9zczm+WdKGV1Zr+4ERtH4kqyZYfyyAgAnkLMZvo+km/z0JwDrxXZbI7w tCfS0DFLKq4Z0WByoXKkgLSz9+YaS1NWI7ncVGz31tqflhV393AZ1HtiepPU09wi6TqY xCpQ== Received: by 10.49.116.139 with SMTP id jw11mr730095qeb.12.1354304081219; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:34:41 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.5.232 with SMTP id v8ls562716qev.76.gmail; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:34:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.123.43 with SMTP id u31mr1433407yhh.43.1354304080759; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:34:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.123.43 with SMTP id u31mr1433405yhh.43.1354304080729; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:34:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx2-out.gaggle.net (mx2-out.gaggle.net. [208.81.237.192]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id t49si382537yhc.1.2012.11.30.11.34.39; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:34:40 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of park.annie@asb.gaggle.net designates 208.81.237.192 as permitted sender) client-ip=208.81.237.192; Received: (qmail 20232 invoked by uid 358); 30 Nov 2012 19:34:37 -0000 Received: from [10.0.32.2] (HELO web6.gaggle.net) (10.0.32.2) by mx2.gaggle.net (qpsmtpd/0.83) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:34:37 -0800 Received: from [204.29.72.160] (HELO [204.29.72.160]) (204.29.72.160) (smtp-auth username Park.Annie@asb.gaggle.net, mechanism plain) by mx8.gaggle.net (qpsmtpd/0.83) with ESMTPA; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 09:24:00 -0800 Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Fullstop References: <41C793FE-DF9E-4814-82D9-353E740E390D@asb.gaggle.net> <0008395A-7118-4574-819E-2C5EDB2ED45F@asb.gaggle.net> <9027430.VGYknXV5XY@caracal> From: Annie X-Mailer: iPod Mail (10A523) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 09:23:54 -0800 (PST) To: "lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on mx8.gaggle.net X-Gaggle-Info: *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. X-Gaggle-Sender-Ref-ID: 4ba428aeedef92d1e47fec1f3da38af07c17439fb71bf01eb4d5fdebccc0793b0f6d7e25977aa14a24b4e70982531952abbe4f81370bfcd5781f957816d3137f X-Gaggle-Blocked-Patterns: \bbis?\b X-Gaggle-APS-Scores: false -9.0 0 0 2 http://groups.google.com%2Fgroup%2Flojban-beginners%3Fhl%3Den null X-Gaggle-APS-Scores: false -9.0 0 0 2 http://groups.google.com%2Fgroup%2Flojban null X-Gaggle-Ref-ID: 01406f99aeab614f7aee2a1e44eb0f349942041c6e9d8604 X-Gaggle-Unblocked-By: Kimberlee Boise, userid [18478538], at Fri Nov 30 11:34:37 PST 2012 X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on mx2.gaggle.net X-Original-Sender: park.annie@asb.gaggle.net X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of park.annie@asb.gaggle.net designates 208.81.237.192 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=park.annie@asb.gaggle.net Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_36429_26813478.1354296240691" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_36429_26813478.1354296240691 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having the full stop or not makes a difference in the meaning ofthe wordhis Sent from my iPod On Nov 29, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Michael Turniansky <mtu= rniansky@gmail.com> wrote: No, you misunderstand. It's not "a word that has a full stop in it". It IS = two words. The fact that they are written together with a full stop doesn't= change that fact. We can write "la djan. klama lo zarci mu'i lo nu vo'a se= jersi .ii" as "ladjan.klama lozarci mu'ilonuvo'asejersi.ii' and it's still= completely unambiguous (although a pain for humans to read) with the full = stops indicating the one MUST pause there, otherwise it means something els= e. --gejyspa On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Annie <park.ann= ie@asb.gaggle.net> wrote: Oo, I mean why don't you take the full stop out and put the space? Besides,= how do you pronounce words that have a full stop in themhis When I try to = pause within the word, it sounds like there needs to be an apostrophe or so= mething? Sent from my iPod On Nov 24, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gma= il.com> wrote: On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Annie <park.ann= ie@asb.gaggle.net> wrote: Why would you want to elide two words together like that, when you can just= space between them? Firstly, it's not eliding. The pauses are required by the grammar of Lojban= , and {na.e} takes one less character than {na .e}. Furthermore, not having= the space serves to visually group the words together, subtly signalling t= o readers that the two words are linked. With {na.e}, for example, the {na}= modifies the {.e}, and in fact, the {na} makes no sense without the {.e}, = and the {.e} means something else entirely without the {na}. A .e B =3D A and B: "1 .e 1" =3D 1 A na.e B =3D !A and B, (not A) and B: "1 na.e 1" =3D "0 .e 1" =3D 0 A .enai B =3D A and !B, A and (not B): "1 .enai 1" =3D "1 .e 0" =3D 0 Sent from my iPod On Nov 21, 2012, at 10:51 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitop= o.org> wrote: > On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 13:18:39 Annie wrote: >> All that makes since, the full stop separating one word from a word that >> begins a vowel and all. However, I've seen it in the middle of words >> before. What's that for? Sent from my iPod > > It's actually separating two words, but they're written run together. For > example: > > la .kot.divu=E1r. na.e la .pyd. xazdo > C=F4te d'Ivoire not-and Tibet Asian > C=F4te d'Ivoire is not Asian, but Tibet is. > > "kot.divuar" is two words, but a single name. "na.e" is two words, but a > single conjunction, and the second word begins with a vowel. ("naje" is a= lso > two words, and logically the same conjunction, but it connects a differen= t kind > of phrase.) > > ta'e la .kot.divu=E1r. du la xantyde'i xaskoi > > Pierre > -- > li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du > li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to l= ojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3D= en. > > *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to loj= ban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= . -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to loj= ban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= . *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to loj= ban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to loj= ban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= . *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_36429_26813478.1354296240691 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Having the full stop or not makes = a difference in the meaning ofthe wordhis

Sent from my iPod

On Nov 29, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
  No, you misunderstand= . It's not "a word that has a full stop in it".  It IS two words. The = fact that they are written together with a full stop doesn't change that fa= ct.  We can write "la djan. klama lo zarci mu'i lo nu vo'a se jersi .i= i" as "ladjan.klama lozarci mu'ilonuvo'asejersi.ii' and it's still complete= ly unambiguous (although a pain for humans to read) with the full stops ind= icating the one MUST pause there, otherwise it means something else.

          --gejyspa

<= br>
On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Annie <park.annie@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:
Oo, I mean why don't = you take the full stop out and put the space? Besides, how do you pronounce= words that have a full stop in themhis When I try to pause within the word= , it sounds like there needs to be an apostrophe or something? 

Sent from my iPod

On Nov 24, 2012,= at 4:00 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Annie <park.annie@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:
Why would you want to elide two words together like that, when you can just= space between them?

Firstly, it's not eliding. Th= e pauses are required by the grammar of Lojban, and {na.e} takes one less c= haracter than {na .e}. Furthermore, not having the space serves to visually= group the words together, subtly signalling to readers that the two words = are linked. With {na.e}, for example, the {na} modifies the {.e}, and in fa= ct, the {na} makes no sense without the {.e}, and the {.e} means something = else entirely without the {na}.

A .e B =3D A and B: "1 .e 1" =3D 1
A na.e B =3D !A and B, (not A) an= d B: "1 na.e 1" =3D "0 .e 1" =3D 0
A .enai B =3D A and !B, A and (not B)= : "1 .enai 1" =3D "1 .e 0" =3D 0
 
Sent from my iPod

On Nov 21, 2012, at 10:51 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:

> On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 13:18:39 Annie wrote:
>> All that makes since, the full stop separating one word from a wor= d that
>> begins a vowel and all. However, I've seen it in the middle of wor= ds
>> before. What's that for? Sent from my iPod
>
> It's actually separating two words, but they're written run together. = For
> example:
>
> la .kot.divu=E1r. na.e la .pyd. xazdo
> C=F4te d'Ivoire not-and Tibet Asian
> C=F4te d'Ivoire is not Asian, but Tibet is.
>
> "kot.divuar" is two words, but a single name. "na.e" is two words, but= a
> single conjunction, and the second word begins with a vowel. ("naje" i= s also
> two words, and logically the same conjunction, but it connects a diffe= rent kind
> of phrase.)
>
> ta'e la .kot.divu=E1r. du la xantyde'i xaskoi
>
> Pierre
> --
> li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
> li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com= .
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne= rs+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>
>


*** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Bli= nd.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsu= bscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.





*** This Email was sent by a student at School for th= e Blind.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginn= ers?hl=3Den.





*** This Email w= as sent by a student at School for the Blind.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
------=_Part_36429_26813478.1354296240691--