Received: from mail-vc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]:46597)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncBDA4JGNARYDBB5P75OCQKGQETE2TULA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1Tf3ld-0000If-9p; Sat, 01 Dec 2012 23:15:14 -0800
Received: by mail-vc0-f189.google.com with SMTP id p16sf912816vcq.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Sat, 01 Dec 2012 23:15:02 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
         :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=XD+9eKYYz0OjJ67MlanSXwSC1PTEQRvUjxFFBomcwXA=;
        b=Y0YB+aPCBMYsify0GBOKB4ZjoluRsfcv4Yr6SLE8/x4bEmHcWUGN+owYcT3EwJTbH5
         FdeSpn2gDrmcC80QmRZoIhCLqzGOEhTdm6mm1dIYcYlarm/7UULWYspDAK80+u0sX8Tp
         h3/75uFiA2OYi+WcpZun+iRAa/0rhC3HIgXrDbHuzlNBtY0yHx9FlhVPeP1lKYEgT6G4
         ZsRp/MOMtANgzixVC/pUHH/eQevJIJWrpmzXxhy7sED6yrPL4PjUdfOd5YcHqVg9htkf
         qIByO6nhVXfBpfsAQJbsHsl2UjCSTSYvZ1tDa0SiwGPKsHFsprFY+Lt2VMNbNft2lbpc
         Wiag==
Received: by 10.49.26.35 with SMTP id i3mr1532422qeg.31.1354432502652;
        Sat, 01 Dec 2012 23:15:02 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.49.0.19 with SMTP id 19ls189428qea.55.gmail; Sat, 01 Dec 2012
 23:15:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.58.170.6 with SMTP id ai6mr2179199vec.35.1354432501429;
        Sat, 01 Dec 2012 23:15:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.58.170.6 with SMTP id ai6mr2179198vec.35.1354432501412;
        Sat, 01 Dec 2012 23:15:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-vc0-f180.google.com (mail-vc0-f180.google.com [209.85.220.180])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dj17si2945039vdb.1.2012.12.01.23.15.01
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Sat, 01 Dec 2012 23:15:01 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.180;
Received: by mail-vc0-f180.google.com with SMTP id p16so886892vcq.11
        for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>; Sat, 01 Dec 2012 23:15:01 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.52.73.10 with SMTP id h10mr4754157vdv.97.1354432501274; Sat,
 01 Dec 2012 23:15:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.220.196.89 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Dec 2012 23:15:01 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <cb28c2f6-2d28-49a0-9fe9-09611faa7cb8@googlegroups.com>
References: <33272af0-7522-44d7-a040-e451bf851595@googlegroups.com>
	<e671ce93-c8c9-482c-a7b6-4fb584a86972@a15g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>
	<CAPAJj9L4v_0jHO2BZj81AanB4w4YN0P=yfoBHuExJXmxryjPUA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj3a1+VaNV48ExXL5TWmDB+6wPFwPb=wQ0sLt=kw43+hyw@mail.gmail.com>
	<3c1628ec-40a0-41fd-90a9-65e110d9ab0a@googlegroups.com>
	<CAMKwHj2vkUd4HLB5ZETwtjF00Oo71QierOn6wVv9c86=26r-fQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb28c2f6-2d28-49a0-9fe9-09611faa7cb8@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 00:15:01 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj3iQe0=WrRAXXQ9-J9kDLHhV8P-n0NhFg3W98zMNoWHNw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Why no "about" brivla?
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.180 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:googlegroups-manage+300742228892+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3071c6981c57a404cfd964e1
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--20cf3071c6981c57a404cfd964e1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 12:00 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:50:42 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 11:09 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:30:39 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:17 AM, tijlan <jbot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 1 December 2012 12:09, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> > This is just what {se srana} or {selra'a} is.
>>>>>
>>>>> An about, a thematic focus, is more specific than that. cfika2, for
>>>>> instance, may be as much relevant to cfika1 as cfika3 may be -- a work
>>>>> of fiction cu srana both its plot and its author (and possibly many
>>>>> other things). Consider:
>>>>>
>>>>> la .alis. cfika sera'a lo nixli
>>>>>
>>>>> This doesn't necessarily say that the plot revolves around a girl --
>>>>> it could as well be saying the work is dedicated to a girl.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry, I don't see how anything based on {srana} could possibly
>>>> mean "dedicated to". You'll have to explain.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, may be it's not that something is wrong with {sera'a/pe/srana} but
>>> rather wrong usage and/or glossing.
>>>
>>> *srana x1 pertains to/is germane/relevant to/concerns/is
>>> related/associated with/is about x2.*
>>> *ckini  x1 is related to/associated with/akin to x2 by relationship x3.*
>>>
>>> If we arbitrarily chose parts of those definitions we'd get
>>> *  srana x1 is relevant to x2
>>>   ckini  x1 is relevant to x2
>>> *
>>> which is nonsense.
>>>
>>
>> ckini wouldn't be that. For one thing, you left out the x3, and for
>> another, it isn't "relevant", it's "related". The Cold War isn't relevant
>> to WWII, but it is related (by being a direct result of it).
>>
>
> Sorry, it should be
> *  srana x1 is releted to x2*
> *  ckini  x1 is related to x2 by relationship x3*
>

Well, by that definition, srana is {ckini fi zi'o}, which makes them
synonyms in the same way that litru is to klama (litru = {klama zi'o zi'o}).

(Btw, in my view, zi'o doesn't say that there is no such thing as whatever
place it's in, but just that it's not important. For example, {ko'a klama
zi'o zi'o ...} doesn't mean there /isn't/ an origin or destination, it just
means that they don't matter. Dissenters should use zo'e instead.)


>
>>
>>> If {srana} really gives us thematic role then all the other "is relevant
>>> to" meanings can be assigned to {ckini/seki'i}.
>>>
>>
-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.


--20cf3071c6981c57a404cfd964e1
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 12:00 AM, la gleki <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:50:42 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:<div class=3D"i=
m"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sa=
t, Dec 1, 2012 at 11:09 PM, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>gleki.is...@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:30:39 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:<blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6=
:17 AM, tijlan <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>jbot...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<div>

<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>On 1 December 2012 12:09, ianek &lt;<a>jan...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt; This is just what {se srana} or {selra&#39;a} is.<br>
<br>
</div>An about, a thematic focus, is more specific than that. cfika2, for<b=
r>
instance, may be as much relevant to cfika1 as cfika3 may be -- a work<br>
of fiction cu srana both its plot and its author (and possibly many<br>
other things). Consider:<br>
<br>
la .alis. cfika sera&#39;a lo nixli<br>
<br>
This doesn&#39;t necessarily say that the plot revolves around a girl --<br=
>
it could as well be saying the work is dedicated to a girl.<br></blockquote=
><div><br>I&#39;m sorry, I don&#39;t see how anything based on {srana} coul=
d possibly mean &quot;dedicated to&quot;. You&#39;ll have to explain.<br>

</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, may be it&#39;s no=
t that something is wrong with {sera&#39;a/pe/srana} but rather wrong usage=
 and/or glossing.</div><div><br></div><div><i>srana=A0x1 pertains to/is ger=
mane/relevant to/concerns/is related/associated with<b>/is about x2</b>.</i=
></div>

<div><i>ckini =A0x1 is related to/associated with/akin to x2 by relationshi=
p x3.</i></div><div><br></div><div>If we arbitrarily chose parts of those d=
efinitions we&#39;d get<br><i>=A0 srana x1 is relevant to x2<br>=A0 ckini =
=A0x1 is relevant to x2<br>

</i></div><div>which is nonsense.</div></blockquote><div><br>ckini wouldn&#=
39;t be that. For one thing, you left out the x3, and for another, it isn&#=
39;t &quot;relevant&quot;, it&#39;s &quot;related&quot;. The Cold War isn&#=
39;t relevant to WWII, but it is related (by being a direct result of it).<=
br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Sorry, it should be=A0</=
div><div><div><i>=A0 srana x1 is releted to x2</i></div><div><i>=A0 ckini =
=A0x1 is related to x2=A0by relationship x3</i></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br>Well, by that definition, srana is {ckini fi zi&#39;o}, which makes t=
hem synonyms in the same way that litru is to klama (litru =3D {klama zi&#3=
9;o zi&#39;o}).<br>
<br>(Btw, in my view, zi&#39;o doesn&#39;t say that there is no such thing =
as whatever place it&#39;s in, but just that it&#39;s not important. For ex=
ample, {ko&#39;a klama zi&#39;o zi&#39;o ...} doesn&#39;t mean there /isn&#=
39;t/ an origin or destination, it just means that they don&#39;t matter. D=
issenters should use zo&#39;e instead.)<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><div></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div></div><div>If {srana} really g=
ives us thematic role then all the other &quot;is relevant to&quot; meaning=
s can be assigned to {ckini/seki&#39;i}.</div>
</blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br>-- <br>mu&#39;=
o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i d=
oi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your fath=
er. :D )<br>
<br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.<br />



--20cf3071c6981c57a404cfd964e1--