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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Why no "about" brivla?
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 1:03 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 11:15:01 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 12:00 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:50:42 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 11:09 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:30:39 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:17 AM, tijlan <jbot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1 December 2012 12:09, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> > This is just what {se srana} or {selra'a} is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An about, a thematic focus, is more specific than that. cfika2, for
>>>>>>> instance, may be as much relevant to cfika1 as cfika3 may be -- a
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> of fiction cu srana both its plot and its author (and possibly many
>>>>>>> other things). Consider:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> la .alis. cfika sera'a lo nixli
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This doesn't necessarily say that the plot revolves around a girl --
>>>>>>> it could as well be saying the work is dedicated to a girl.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sorry, I don't see how anything based on {srana} could possibly
>>>>>> mean "dedicated to". You'll have to explain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, may be it's not that something is wrong with {sera'a/pe/srana}
>>>>> but rather wrong usage and/or glossing.
>>>>>
>>>>> *srana x1 pertains to/is germane/relevant to/concerns/is
>>>>> related/associated with/is about x2.*
>>>>> *ckini  x1 is related to/associated with/akin to x2 by relationship
>>>>> x3.*
>>>>>
>>>>> If we arbitrarily chose parts of those definitions we'd get
>>>>> *  srana x1 is relevant to x2
>>>>>   ckini  x1 is relevant to x2
>>>>> *
>>>>> which is nonsense.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ckini wouldn't be that. For one thing, you left out the x3, and for
>>>> another, it isn't "relevant", it's "related". The Cold War isn't relevant
>>>> to WWII, but it is related (by being a direct result of it).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, it should be
>>> *  srana x1 is releted to x2*
>>> *  ckini  x1 is related to x2 by relationship x3*
>>>
>>
>> Well, by that definition, srana is {ckini fi zi'o}, which makes them
>> synonyms in the same way that litru is to klama (litru = {klama zi'o zi'o}).
>>
>
> Haven't you read my previous post? I mean that choosing words from full
> definitions ARBITRARILY can lead to this result which is nonsense.
> ju'o it's all bad glossing.
> I suggest that srana refers to topic and ckini means "to be associated
> with".
> to dedicate is {finfriti}, {tecu'u} etc.
>

No, ko'a srana ko'e means that ko'a is relevant to ko'e, i.e. ko'a has
something to do with ko'e.

While it is true that the topic of something is pertinent, something which
is pertinent is not necessarily the topic.

Roosevelt is pertinent to the Great Depression, but he is most certainly
/not/ the topic of it.


> (Btw, in my view, zi'o doesn't say that there is no such thing as whatever
>> place it's in, but just that it's not important. For example, {ko'a klama
>> zi'o zi'o ...} doesn't mean there /isn't/ an origin or destination, it just
>> means that they don't matter. Dissenters should use zo'e instead.)
>>
>
> I think the CLL says almost the same.
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If {srana} really gives us thematic role then all the other "is
>>>>> relevant to" meanings can be assigned to {ckini/seki'i}.
>>>>>
>>>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>
>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>
>>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
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>
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>



-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--f46d043d67e9dc08cf04cfdb50d5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 1:03 AM, la gleki <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 11:15:01 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:<div><div class=
=3D"h5"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 12:00 AM, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>gleki.is=
...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:50:42 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:<div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 1, 201=
2 at 11:09 PM, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:30:39 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:<blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6=
:17 AM, tijlan <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>jbot...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<div>


<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>On 1 December 2012 12:09, ianek &lt;<a>jan...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt; This is just what {se srana} or {selra&#39;a} is.<br>
<br>
</div>An about, a thematic focus, is more specific than that. cfika2, for<b=
r>
instance, may be as much relevant to cfika1 as cfika3 may be -- a work<br>
of fiction cu srana both its plot and its author (and possibly many<br>
other things). Consider:<br>
<br>
la .alis. cfika sera&#39;a lo nixli<br>
<br>
This doesn&#39;t necessarily say that the plot revolves around a girl --<br=
>
it could as well be saying the work is dedicated to a girl.<br></blockquote=
><div><br>I&#39;m sorry, I don&#39;t see how anything based on {srana} coul=
d possibly mean &quot;dedicated to&quot;. You&#39;ll have to explain.<br>


</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, may be it&#39;s no=
t that something is wrong with {sera&#39;a/pe/srana} but rather wrong usage=
 and/or glossing.</div><div><br></div><div><i>srana=A0x1 pertains to/is ger=
mane/relevant to/concerns/is related/associated with<b>/is about x2</b>.</i=
></div>


<div><i>ckini =A0x1 is related to/associated with/akin to x2 by relationshi=
p x3.</i></div><div><br></div><div>If we arbitrarily chose parts of those d=
efinitions we&#39;d get<br><i>=A0 srana x1 is relevant to x2<br>=A0 ckini =
=A0x1 is relevant to x2<br>


</i></div><div>which is nonsense.</div></blockquote><div><br>ckini wouldn&#=
39;t be that. For one thing, you left out the x3, and for another, it isn&#=
39;t &quot;relevant&quot;, it&#39;s &quot;related&quot;. The Cold War isn&#=
39;t relevant to WWII, but it is related (by being a direct result of it).<=
br>

</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Sorry, it should be=A0</=
div><div><div><i>=A0 srana x1 is releted to x2</i></div><div><i>=A0 ckini =
=A0x1 is related to x2=A0by relationship x3</i></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br>
Well, by that definition, srana is {ckini fi zi&#39;o}, which makes them sy=
nonyms in the same way that litru is to klama (litru =3D {klama zi&#39;o zi=
&#39;o}).<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div>Haven=
&#39;t you read my previous post? I mean that choosing words from full defi=
nitions ARBITRARILY can lead to this result which is nonsense.</div>
<div>ju&#39;o it&#39;s all bad glossing.</div><div>I suggest that srana ref=
ers to topic and ckini means &quot;to be associated with&quot;.</div><div>t=
o dedicate is {finfriti}, {tecu&#39;u} etc.</div></blockquote><div><br>
No, ko&#39;a srana ko&#39;e means that ko&#39;a is relevant to ko&#39;e, i.=
e. ko&#39;a has something to do with ko&#39;e.<br><br>While it is true that=
 the topic of something is pertinent, something which is pertinent is not n=
ecessarily the topic.<br>
<br>Roosevelt is pertinent to the Great Depression, but he is most certainl=
y /not/ the topic of it.<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div cl=
ass=3D"im">
<div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:=
0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><div>
(Btw, in my view, zi&#39;o doesn&#39;t say that there is no such thing as w=
hatever place it&#39;s in, but just that it&#39;s not important. For exampl=
e, {ko&#39;a klama zi&#39;o zi&#39;o ...} doesn&#39;t mean there /isn&#39;t=
/ an origin or destination, it just means that they don&#39;t matter. Disse=
nters should use zo&#39;e instead.)<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I think the CLL says alm=
ost the same.</div><div class=3D"im"><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">

<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div></div><div>If {srana} really g=
ives us thematic role then all the other &quot;is relevant to&quot; meaning=
s can be assigned to {ckini/seki&#39;i}.</div>

</blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br>-- <br>mu&#39;=
o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i d=
oi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your fath=
er. :D )<br>

<br>
</blockquote>

<p></p></div><div class=3D"im">

-- <br>
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<div class=3D"h5">
<br>=20
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l=
uk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. =
:D )<br>
<br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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Lojban Beginners" group.<br />
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