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From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Why no "about" brivla?
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On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:32:48 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>
> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 1:03 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 11:15:01 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 12:00 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:50:42 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 11:09 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:30:39 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:17 AM, tijlan <jbot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1 December 2012 12:09, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > This is just what {se srana} or {selra'a} is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> An about, a thematic focus, is more specific than that. cfika2, for
>>>>>>>> instance, may be as much relevant to cfika1 as cfika3 may be -- a 
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> of fiction cu srana both its plot and its author (and possibly many
>>>>>>>> other things). Consider:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> la .alis. cfika sera'a lo nixli
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This doesn't necessarily say that the plot revolves around a girl --
>>>>>>>> it could as well be saying the work is dedicated to a girl.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry, I don't see how anything based on {srana} could possibly 
>>>>>>> mean "dedicated to". You'll have to explain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, may be it's not that something is wrong with {sera'a/pe/srana} 
>>>>>> but rather wrong usage and/or glossing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *srana x1 pertains to/is germane/relevant to/concerns/is 
>>>>>> related/associated with/is about x2.*
>>>>>> *ckini  x1 is related to/associated with/akin to x2 by relationship 
>>>>>> x3.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we arbitrarily chose parts of those definitions we'd get
>>>>>> *  srana x1 is relevant to x2
>>>>>>   ckini  x1 is relevant to x2
>>>>>> *
>>>>>> which is nonsense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ckini wouldn't be that. For one thing, you left out the x3, and for 
>>>>> another, it isn't "relevant", it's "related". The Cold War isn't relevant 
>>>>> to WWII, but it is related (by being a direct result of it).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, it should be 
>>>> *  srana x1 is releted to x2*
>>>> *  ckini  x1 is related to x2 by relationship x3*
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, by that definition, srana is {ckini fi zi'o}, which makes them 
>>> synonyms in the same way that litru is to klama (litru = {klama zi'o zi'o}).
>>>
>>
>> Haven't you read my previous post? I mean that choosing words from full 
>> definitions ARBITRARILY can lead to this result which is nonsense.
>> ju'o it's all bad glossing.
>> I suggest that srana refers to topic and ckini means "to be associated 
>> with".
>> to dedicate is {finfriti}, {tecu'u} etc.
>>
>
> No, ko'a srana ko'e means that ko'a is relevant to ko'e, i.e. ko'a has 
> something to do with ko'e.
>
> While it is true that the topic of something is pertinent, something which 
> is pertinent is not necessarily the topic.
>

Then what is your opinion about my first post? Is it true that "topic" 
brivla has right to exist on it's own?
 

>
> Roosevelt is pertinent to the Great Depression, but he is most certainly 
> /not/ the topic of it.
>  
>
>>  (Btw, in my view, zi'o doesn't say that there is no such thing as 
>>> whatever place it's in, but just that it's not important. For example, 
>>> {ko'a klama zi'o zi'o ...} doesn't mean there /isn't/ an origin or 
>>> destination, it just means that they don't matter. Dissenters should use 
>>> zo'e instead.)
>>>
>>
>> I think the CLL says almost the same.
>>  
>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>>   
>>>>>
>>>>>> If {srana} really gives us thematic role then all the other "is 
>>>>>> relevant to" meanings can be assigned to {ckini/seki'i}.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>
>>>  -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/UZopTp21hiIJ.
>>
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com<javascript:>
>> .
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>> lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>.
>> For more options, visit this group at 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
>

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------=_Part_204_19783118.1354441736920
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:32:48 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:<blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left=
: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec=
 2, 2012 at 1:03 AM, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:"=
 target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"zEHhG9x15pwJ">gleki.is...@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 11:15:01 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:<div><div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 2=
, 2012 at 12:00 AM, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>gleki.is...@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:50:42 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:<div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 1, 201=
2 at 11:09 PM, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:30:39 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:<blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6=
:17 AM, tijlan <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>jbot...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<div>


<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>On 1 December 2012 12:09, ianek &lt;<a>jan...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt; This is just what {se srana} or {selra'a} is.<br>
<br>
</div>An about, a thematic focus, is more specific than that. cfika2, for<b=
r>
instance, may be as much relevant to cfika1 as cfika3 may be -- a work<br>
of fiction cu srana both its plot and its author (and possibly many<br>
other things). Consider:<br>
<br>
la .alis. cfika sera'a lo nixli<br>
<br>
This doesn't necessarily say that the plot revolves around a girl --<br>
it could as well be saying the work is dedicated to a girl.<br></blockquote=
><div><br>I'm sorry, I don't see how anything based on {srana} could possib=
ly mean "dedicated to". You'll have to explain.<br>


</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, may be it's not th=
at something is wrong with {sera'a/pe/srana} but rather wrong usage and/or =
glossing.</div><div><br></div><div><i>srana&nbsp;x1 pertains to/is germane/=
relevant to/concerns/is related/associated with<b>/is about x2</b>.</i></di=
v>


<div><i>ckini &nbsp;x1 is related to/associated with/akin to x2 by relation=
ship x3.</i></div><div><br></div><div>If we arbitrarily chose parts of thos=
e definitions we'd get<br><i>&nbsp; srana x1 is relevant to x2<br>&nbsp; ck=
ini &nbsp;x1 is relevant to x2<br>


</i></div><div>which is nonsense.</div></blockquote><div><br>ckini wouldn't=
 be that. For one thing, you left out the x3, and for another, it isn't "re=
levant", it's "related". The Cold War isn't relevant to WWII, but it is rel=
ated (by being a direct result of it).<br>

</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Sorry, it should be&nbsp=
;</div><div><div><i>&nbsp; srana x1 is releted to x2</i></div><div><i>&nbsp=
; ckini &nbsp;x1 is related to x2&nbsp;by relationship x3</i></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br>
Well, by that definition, srana is {ckini fi zi'o}, which makes them synony=
ms in the same way that litru is to klama (litru =3D {klama zi'o zi'o}).<br=
></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div>Haven't you read =
my previous post? I mean that choosing words from full definitions ARBITRAR=
ILY can lead to this result which is nonsense.</div>
<div>ju'o it's all bad glossing.</div><div>I suggest that srana refers to t=
opic and ckini means "to be associated with".</div><div>to dedicate is {fin=
friti}, {tecu'u} etc.</div></blockquote><div><br>
No, ko'a srana ko'e means that ko'a is relevant to ko'e, i.e. ko'a has some=
thing to do with ko'e.<br><br>While it is true that the topic of something =
is pertinent, something which is pertinent is not necessarily the topic.<br=
></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Then what is your opinion abo=
ut my first post? Is it true that "topic" brivla has right to exist on it's=
 own?</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>
<br>Roosevelt is pertinent to the Great Depression, but he is most certainl=
y /not/ the topic of it.<br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
>
<div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:=
0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><div>
(Btw, in my view, zi'o doesn't say that there is no such thing as whatever =
place it's in, but just that it's not important. For example, {ko'a klama z=
i'o zi'o ...} doesn't mean there /isn't/ an origin or destination, it just =
means that they don't matter. Dissenters should use zo'e instead.)<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I think the CLL says alm=
ost the same.</div><div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>
&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>
&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div></div><div>If {srana} reall=
y gives us thematic role then all the other "is relevant to" meanings can b=
e assigned to {ckini/seki'i}.</div>

</blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br>-- <br>mu'o mi=
'e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi p=
atfu do zo'o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>

<br>
</blockquote>

<p></p></div><div>

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<br>=20
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu'o mi'e .=
aionys.<br><br>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu=
 do zo'o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>
<br>
</blockquote>

<p></p>

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