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[208.81.237.194]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id i27si171577yhe.4.2012.12.04.11.59.45; Tue, 04 Dec 2012 11:59:47 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of park.annie@asb.gaggle.net designates 208.81.237.194 as permitted sender) client-ip=208.81.237.194; Received: (qmail 18250 invoked by uid 358); 4 Dec 2012 19:59:44 -0000 Received: from [10.0.32.2] (HELO web6.gaggle.net) (10.0.32.2) by mx4.gaggle.net (qpsmtpd/0.83) with ESMTP; Tue, 04 Dec 2012 11:59:44 -0800 Received: from [204.29.72.160] (HELO [204.29.72.160]) (204.29.72.160) (smtp-auth username Park.Annie@asb.gaggle.net, mechanism plain) by mx4.gaggle.net (qpsmtpd/0.83) with ESMTPA; Tue, 04 Dec 2012 09:05:41 -0800 Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Why no "about" brivla? References: <33272af0-7522-44d7-a040-e451bf851595@googlegroups.com> <3c1628ec-40a0-41fd-90a9-65e110d9ab0a@googlegroups.com> <96205a36-c08f-4ebe-877e-112c22a5aefc@googlegroups.com> From: Annie X-Mailer: iPod Mail (10A523) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <8E7E7DF9-4C4C-40F8-9668-78F802C1E059@asb.gaggle.net> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 09:05:38 -0800 (PST) To: "lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on mx4.gaggle.net X-Gaggle-Info: *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. X-Gaggle-Sender-Ref-ID: 4ba428aeedef92d19413ac775d487d8c365952c4a7ffb8de32856ebed3848e15a0138764afdc70c0f143d468ab45ba6babbe4f81370bfcd5781f957816d3137f X-Gaggle-Blocked-Patterns: \bfus?\b X-Gaggle-APS-Scores: false -9.0 0 0 5 http://vlasisku.lojban.org 5.0.1-1061-22 X-Gaggle-APS-Scores: false -9.0 0 0 2 https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsg%2Flojban-beginners%2F-%2Fx2tg50HGg-oJ null X-Gaggle-APS-Scores: false -9.0 0 0 2 http://groups.google.com%2Fgroup%2Flojban-beginners%3Fhl%3Den null X-Gaggle-APS-Scores: false -9.0 0 0 2 http://groups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsg%2Flojban null X-Gaggle-APS-Scores: false -9.0 0 0 2 http://groups.google.com%2Fgroup%2Flojban null X-Gaggle-Ref-ID: 01406f99aeab614f55b78c205d7ecbeaaabc6d468e3eb707 X-Gaggle-Unblocked-By: Shayla Swibaker, userid [18475342], at Tue Dec 04 11:59:44 PST 2012 X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on mx4.gaggle.net X-Original-Sender: park.annie@asb.gaggle.net X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of park.annie@asb.gaggle.net designates 208.81.237.194 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=park.annie@asb.gaggle.net Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_72283_18227467.1354640742016" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_72283_18227467.1354640742016 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 What do you mean you don't believe me "the questions I ask? BESIDES, can you elaborate on brivla?rivla? Sent from my iPod On Dec 3, 2012, at 6:43 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote: On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 3:17 AM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote: On 3 Gru, 05:15, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Annie <park.an...@asb.gaggle.net> wrote: > > How do you get "is dedicated to" out of "is related to"? > > I'd like to know that myself. > > > Besides, someone was trying to say that a more-than-five-letter word meaos > > "dedicate". How is that possible, when it's not a gismu? > > I think you're confusing "brivla" and "gismu" here. Firstly, gismu are not > the only words in Lojban that mean something. Every native and most > borrowed words have some kind of meaning. Secondly, there are many > different kinds of brivla besides gismu, tanru, lujvo, and fu'ivla being > the most common, but there are other types I don't feel like getting into > (, like the kind that use {me}). I think you're confusing "brivla" and "selbri" here. There are no brivla besides gismu, lujvo and fu'ivla. tanru is not a word, so it's not a predicate word. Aye. I also think that lojban-beginners is an awful place to start learning Lojban. L4B or wave lessons would be much better, but I don't know about their accessibility for blind people. She said previously that she's found as is reading L4B, but based on her questions I don't think I believe her. mu'o mi'e ianek > > selra'a is a lujvo formed from the rafsi of {se} (sel-) and {srana} (ra'a). > {se} is a word meaning to switch the first and second places of the > immediately following gismu. > > So, if {srana} means "x1 pertains to/.../is about x2.", than {se srana} > (which is the same thing as {selra'a}) means "x1 is what x2 pertains > to/.../is about." > > Again, vlasisku (http://vlasisku.lojban.org) is extremely useful when it > comes to the meanings of words- that's its entire purpose for existence, > actually. > > As for {si'artersku}, that's formed from the rafsi for, respectively, > sinma, te, and cusku, with the 'r' placed in there for grammatical reasons. > I leave it as an exercise for you to figure out what it means, which is not > at all difficult to do, as all you need to do is look up the meaning of the > words. > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you need two words that mean practically the same in Lojbanhis > > Isn't that illogicalhis > > > Sent from my iPod > > > On Dec 2, 2012, at 1:05 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:52:54 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > > >> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 11:09 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:30:39 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > > >>>>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:17 AM, tijlan <jbot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>> On 1 December 2012 12:09, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>> > This is just what {se srana} or {selra'a} is. > > >>>>>> An about, a thematic focus, is more specific than that. cfika2, for > >>>>>> instance, may be as much relevant to cfika1 as cfika3 may be -- a work > >>>>>> of fiction cu srana both its plot and its author (and possibly many > >>>>>> other things). Consider: > > >>>>>> la .alis. cfika sera'a lo nixli > > >>>>>> This doesn't necessarily say that the plot revolves around a girl -- > >>>>>> it could as well be saying the work is dedicated to a girl. > > >>>>> I'm sorry, I don't see how anything based on {srana} could possibly > >>>>> mean "dedicated to". You'll have to explain. > > >>>> Well, may be it's not that something is wrong with {sera'a/pe/srana} > >>>> but rather wrong usage and/or glossing. > > >>>> *srana x1 pertains to/is germane/relevant to/concerns/is > >>>> related/associated with/is about x2.* > >>>> *ckini x1 is related to/associated with/akin to x2 by relationship x3. > >>>> * > > >>>> If we arbitrarily chose parts of those definitions we'd get > >>>> * srana x1 is relevant to x2 > >>>> ckini x1 is relevant to x2 > >>>> * > >>>> which is nonsense. > > >>> ckini wouldn't be that. For one thing, you left out the x3, and for > >>> another, it isn't "relevant", it's "related". The Cold War isn't relevant > >>> to WWII, but it is related (by being a direct result of it). > > >>>> If {srana} really gives us thematic role then all the other "is > >>>> relevant to" meanings can be assigned to {ckini/seki'i}. > > >> Furthermore, your response does not show how one can get "dedicated to" > >> out of srana. > > > I can't explain tijlan's views. > > For me "dedicated to..." is {tecu'u}, may be with a shade of {sinma} (i.e. > > fi'o sia'rtersku) > > {finfriti} from jvs doesn't sound right for me (probably due to polysemy > > of "to dedicqte"). > > >> -- > >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > >> -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > >https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/x2tg50HGg-oJ. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > > *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. ------=_Part_72283_18227467.1354640742016 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What do you mean you don't believe= me "the questions I ask? BESIDES, can you elaborate on brivla?rivla?
Sent from my iPod

On Dec 3, 2012, at 6:43 AM, Jonathan Jone= s <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:=

On = Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 3:17 AM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote= :
On 3 Gru, 05:15, Jonathan Jones <ey= eo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Annie <park.an...@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:=
> > How do you get "is dedicated to" out of "is related to"?
>
> I'd like to know that myself.
>
> > Besides, someone was trying to say that a more-than-five-letter w= ord meaos
> > "dedicate". How is that possible, when it's not a gismu?
>
> I think you're confusing "brivla" and "gismu" here. Firstly, gismu are= not
> the only words in Lojban that mean something. Every native and most > borrowed words have some kind of meaning. Secondly, there are many
> different kinds of brivla besides gismu, tanru, lujvo, and fu'ivla bei= ng
> the most common, but there are other types I don't feel like getting i= nto
> (, like the kind that use {me}).

I think you're confusing "brivla" and "selbri" here. There are no
brivla besides gismu, lujvo and fu'ivla. tanru is not a word, so it's
not a predicate word.

Aye.
 
I also think that lojban-beginners is an awful place to start learning
Lojban. L4B or wave lessons would be much better, but I don't know
about their accessibility for blind people.

She sa= id previously that she's found as is reading L4B, but based on her question= s I don't think I believe her.
 
mu'o mi'e ianek

>
> selra'a is a lujvo formed from the rafsi of {s= e} (sel-) and {srana} (ra'a).
> {se} is a word meaning to switch the first and second places of the > immediately following gismu.
>
> So, if {srana} means "x1 pertains to/.../is about x2.", than {se srana= }
> (which is the same thing as {selra'a}) means "x1 is what x2 pertains > to/.../is about."
>
> Again, vlasisku (http://vlasisku.lojban.org) is extremely useful when it
> comes to the meanings of words- that's its entire purpose for existenc= e,
> actually.
>
> As for {si'artersku}, that's formed from the rafsi for, respectively,<= br> > sinma, te, and cusku, with the 'r' placed in there for grammatical rea= sons.
> I leave it as an exercise for you to figure out what it means, which i= s not
> at all difficult to do, as all you need to do is look up the meaning o= f the
> words.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Why do you need  two words that mean practically the same in= Lojbanhis
> > Isn't that illogicalhis
>
> > Sent from my iPod
>
> > On Dec 2, 2012, at 1:05 AM, la gleki <= gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:52:54 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>
> >> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Jonathan Jones <
eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 11:09 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:30:39 AM UTC+4, aionys = wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:17 AM, tijlan <jbot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> On 1 December 2012 12:09, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> > This is just what {se srana} or {selra'a= } is.
>
> >>>>>> An about, a thematic focus, is more specific = than that. cfika2, for
> >>>>>> instance, may be as much relevant to cfika1 a= s cfika3 may be -- a work
> >>>>>> of fiction cu srana both its plot and its aut= hor (and possibly many
> >>>>>> other things). Consider:
>
> >>>>>> la .alis. cfika sera'a lo nixli
>
> >>>>>> This doesn't necessarily say that the plot re= volves around a girl --
> >>>>>> it could as well be saying the work is dedica= ted to a girl.
>
> >>>>> I'm sorry, I don't see how anything based on {sra= na} could possibly
> >>>>> mean "dedicated to". You'll have to explain.
>
> >>>> Well, may be it's not that something is wrong with {s= era'a/pe/srana}
> >>>> but rather wrong usage and/or glossing.
>
> >>>> *srana x1 pertains to/is germane/relevant to/co= ncerns/is
> >>>> related/associated with/is about x2.*
> >>>> *ckini  x1 is related to/associated with/akin to= x2 by relationship x3.
> >>>> *
>
> >>>> If we arbitrarily chose parts of those definitions we= 'd get
> >>>> *  srana x1 is relevant to x2
> >>>>   ckini =  x1 is relevant to x2
> >>>> *
> >>>> which is nonsense.
>
> >>> ckini wouldn't be that. For one thing, you left out the x= 3, and for
> >>> another, it isn't "relevant", it's "related". The Cold Wa= r isn't relevant
> >>> to WWII, but it is related (by being a direct result of i= t).
>
> >>>> If {srana} really gives us thematic role then all the= other "is
> >>>> relevant to" meanings can be assigned to {ckini/seki'= i}.
>
> >> Furthermore, your response does not show how one can get "ded= icated to"
> >> out of srana.
>
> > I can't explain tijlan's views.
> > For me "dedicated to..." is {tecu'u}, may be with a shade of {sin= ma} (i.e.
> > fi'o sia'rtersku)
> > {finfriti} from jvs doesn't sound right for me (probably due to p= olysemy
> > of "to dedicqte").
>
> >> --
> >> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu = do zo'o
> >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> >>  --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "Lojban Beginners" group.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginner= s/-/x2tg50HGg-oJ.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= .
>
> > *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "Lojban Beginners" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= .
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginn= ers?hl=3Den.





*** This Email w= as sent by a student at School for the Blind.

--
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