Received: from mail-pb0-f62.google.com ([209.85.160.62]:36119) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TivJq-0004Kz-CY; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:02:37 -0800 Received: by mail-pb0-f62.google.com with SMTP id rq13sf767492pbb.17 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:02:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=AIZTZ8IuaF1qFX8TlMGBr4NhArd3Y339DARGChdzG2k=; b=gx2pFRkI2l6J8JihzLMACCauD7q02EdxZFZLLhz54vgrlgkzxxuW0pDIg/lNFe8LzO 2/3Y8yEelPHLvx5ziQf2ldCaEDFX//7aBDgYDEYIjrGySVglF1+QbALi2ZXFrWCW8f/b Ro0LxBErJQDoR5K5sQV9Qg+0+RE5FyWvxHRJ/+pNv3pBgp+hERQNAOtbss2eCPnm1TXW aDXf0AesJtkXtoGQc1gyd+eTHFE1wCnuvfnqkXpdUGW6Erym7xIiEcZQKgsSsAOnUvIQ QEsKIEVILelCng3aA5C7gI0WoyibbfUrLpCJWErRAr7h6t2hD/dEBIzwSjdwxdlFoPXs jR/A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=AIZTZ8IuaF1qFX8TlMGBr4NhArd3Y339DARGChdzG2k=; b=EMu02ZBPxymlJPkpUC6IJmMM0F1/bvGbDs2Oc13cM+JXq+W3N1HnqnAgPRJCh9W4jU 6Dd401kk71Hu9bGy72/rS/q2rVxxlRHLu4FYhX7zTuedvDTTbUJYsJEK39mG4FPqhFs6 WMHj59A1loLP8rQ3yhaeVjSaC1Mfjh5Hko5JRPMHgI3kmg6N34zScmgCKg8JcK8mNvPa dG3F2uFtfbEC3dGXV5GeO8WNBVc82jkiza1yvdyIb01doiXCOjMcJbmMO3Nezi9JVVE/ ozXhJdKK4cAqV/G1VUItGcvrZLkRgrZpd2bcFlSO1evmSReYkjVfCXbUWy2ZDQS1Imdm OG0Q== Received: by 10.50.5.174 with SMTP id t14mr6276738igt.11.1355353338411; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:02:18 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.45.133 with SMTP id n5ls226369igm.27.gmail; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.74.200 with SMTP id x8mr2525258icj.32.1355353337593; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.74.200 with SMTP id x8mr2525256icj.32.1355353337567; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f176.google.com (mail-ie0-f176.google.com [209.85.223.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o7si310659igl.0.2012.12.12.15.02.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.223.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.223.176; Received: by mail-ie0-f176.google.com with SMTP id 13so2932780iea.35 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.77.132 with SMTP id s4mr14719194igw.49.1355353337239; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:02:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.64.30.115 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:01:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <43218861-CAB0-4A9F-8A53-DA9D59DF7E55@asb.gaggle.net> References: <95cdbee4-7ddc-4f7d-bb48-4591b7c3d915@googlegroups.com> <50C10003.1080806@lojban.org> <5406c1d2-ee78-4b41-ab68-06b7cf99dce7@googlegroups.com> <20121207165143.GE26753@mercury.ccil.org> <12451bd9-6861-4830-a8d0-c5c5f382fe2c@googlegroups.com> <20121208030421.GB3174@mercury.ccil.org> <998450ae-4168-4aea-9fc6-ec695e7b7759@googlegroups.com> <28196B0D-8424-4691-BE67-26CF57B9B4E4@asb.gaggle.net> <43218861-CAB0-4A9F-8A53-DA9D59DF7E55@asb.gaggle.net> From: Luke Bergen Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 18:01:57 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: [bpfk] polysemy of {nai} To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.223.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3bb01d36185804d0afcab1 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8f3bb01d36185804d0afcab1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 So, a sentence is really just a bunch of words grouped together. In fact, I'm not 100% sure that the CLL goes into long depths to define a sentence (thought it's been a while since I've read through it). Think of a bridi as being a specialized verb + some nouns to give more information about that verb. So in the same way that in english you can have a sentence with many clauses, in lojban you can have sub-bridi and such in a sentence. Maybe this will clarify. The definition of "bridi" is: > x1 (text) is a predicate relationship with relation x2 among arguments > (sequence/set) x3. So, when someone talks about a "bridi" they're talking about this relationship. In a bridi the "selbri" (the x2 of the above definition) is the relationship word, the "terbri" (x3 of the above definition) are the noun-like things that act as parameters to the relation. e.g. Take the english sentence "Rex likes when Paul pets him". If I were trying to describe this using lojban grammer I would describe "Paul pets him" as a bridi, because it's the selbri "pet", with two arguments "Paul", and "him". I would also describe the whole thing as a bridi whose selbri is "likes" and whose terbri (arguments) are "Rex" and "when Paul pets him" (since this is an event, it can be thought of as a single noun-like-thing that's attached to "like"). Not sure what is meant by "predication", I'd need to see it in context. Sorry, that got a little long winded. On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Annie wrote: > It's the first sentence, but maybe I misunderstood. what's a terbri, and > how can you identify a bridi if it's not a sentence? what is predication? i > thought that it would be stating the predicut, what the subject is, or does. > > Sent from my iPod > > On Dec 11, 2012, at 3:07 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > > Which passage in chapter 5 gave that impression? From what I understand, > the bridi can be thought of as the whole sentence. The selbri is the > relationship word that pulls the whole thing together, and the terbri, > which are often sumti, are the places. > > "sentence" isn't quite the right word, actually, since you can have bridi > nested within a sentence e.g. "lo gerku ku nelci lo nu pinxe lo djacu". I > would say that the whole thing is a "sentence". The whole thing is also a > "bridi". "pinxe lo djacu" is *also* a bridi. And "lo gerku", "lo nu > pinxe lo djacu", and "lo djacu" are all sumti as well as terbri. > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Annie wrote: > >> oh wow. what other dames do you have for that book? speaking of cll, it >> looks to me, from chapter 5, that a bridi is a sentence without the selbri. >> am i understanding this correctly because if so, why would you want to use >> a bunch of sumti without a selbri? the sentence wouldn't make s5se, it >> seems. >> >> Sent from my iPod >> >> On Dec 11, 2012, at 2:03 PM, Jacob Errington wrote: >> >> Sorry... I just think it's cool that it has a whole bunch of names and >> well, we're also known for giving long-winded answers for no real reason, >> haha. >> >> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o >> >> On 11 December 2012 13:29, Annie wrote: >> >>> You could have just said "CLL". >>> >>> Sent from my iPod >>> >>> On Dec 11, 2012, at 11:50 AM, Jacob Errington >>> wrote: >>> >>> It's one of the CLL's many names. >>> * The Complete Lojban Language >>> * The Red Book >>> * The Codex Woldemar >>> * The Book >>> >>> It's the language's complete grammar description. Orika Okrent, who >>> wrote "In the Land of Invented Languages" says that the CLL is one of the >>> most complete grammatical descriptions of any constructed language. Calling >>> it "The Red Book" stems from the colour of the cover, whereas "The Codex >>> Woldemar" which is just an overly fancy way of referring to it, comes from >>> its author's name, John Woldemar Cowan. >>> >>> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o >>> >>> On 11 December 2012 10:39, Annie wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> what is the red book? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > > > > > > *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --e89a8f3bb01d36185804d0afcab1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So, a sentence is really just a bunch of words grouped together. =A0In fact= , I'm not 100% sure that the CLL goes into long depths to define a sent= ence (thought it's been a while since I've read through it).
Think of a bridi as being a specialized verb + some nouns to giv= e more information about that verb. =A0So in the same way that in english y= ou can have a sentence with many clauses, in lojban you can have sub-bridi = and such in a sentence.


Maybe this= will clarify. =A0The definition of "bridi" is:
x1 (text) is a predicate relationship with relation x2 among arguments (seq= uence/set) x3.

So, when someone talks about= a "bridi" they're talking about this relationship. =A0In a b= ridi the "selbri" (the x2 of the above definition) is the relatio= nship word, the "terbri" (x3 of the above definition) are the nou= n-like things that act as parameters to the relation.
=A0
e.g. =A0Take the english sentence "Rex = likes when Paul pets him". =A0If I were trying to describe this using = lojban grammer I would describe "Paul pets him" as a bridi, becau= se it's the selbri "pet", with two arguments "Paul"= , and "him". =A0I would also describe the whole thing as a bridi = whose selbri is "likes" and whose terbri (arguments) are "Re= x" and "when Paul pets him" (since this is an event, it can = be thought of as a single noun-like-thing that's attached to "like= ").

Not sure what is meant by "predication",= I'd need to see it in context.

Sorry, that go= t a little long winded.

On Wed, Dec 12,= 2012 at 5:30 PM, Annie <park.annie@asb.gaggle.net> = wrote:
It's the first se= ntence, but maybe I misunderstood. what's a terbri, and how can you ide= ntify a bridi if it's not a sentence? what is predication? i thought th= at it would be stating the predicut, what the subject is, or does.

Sent from my iPod

On Dec 11, 2012,= at 3:07 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

Which passage in chapter 5 gave that impression? =A0From what I unders= tand, the bridi can be thought of as the whole sentence. =A0The selbri is t= he relationship word that pulls the whole thing together, and the terbri, w= hich are often sumti, are the places.

"sentence" isn't quite the right word, actuall= y, since you can have bridi nested within a sentence e.g. =A0"lo gerku= ku nelci lo nu pinxe lo djacu". =A0I would say that the whole thing i= s a "sentence". =A0The whole thing is also a "bridi". = =A0"pinxe lo djacu" is also=A0a bridi. =A0And "lo ger= ku", "lo nu pinxe lo djacu", and "lo djacu" are al= l sumti as well as terbri.

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Annie <park.annie@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:
oh wow. what other dames do you have for that book? = speaking of cll, it looks to me, from chapter 5, that a bridi is a sentence= without the selbri. am i understanding this correctly because if so, why w= ould you want to use a bunch of sumti without a selbri? the sentence wouldn= 't make s5se, it seems.

Sent from my iPod

On Dec 11, 2012, at 2:03 PM, = Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry... I just think it's cool that it has a whole bunch of names= and well, we're also known for giving long-winded answers for no real = reason, haha.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

On 11 December 2012 13:29, Annie <park.annie@asb.gaggle.net>= ; wrote:
You could have just said "CLL".

Sen= t from my iPod

On Dec 11, 2012, at 11:50 AM, Jacob = Errington <nicty= tan@gmail.com> wrote:

It's one of the CLL's many= names.
* The Complete Lojban Language
* The Red Book
* The Codex Woldemar
* The Book

It= 9;s the language's complete grammar description. Orika Okrent, who wrot= e "In the Land of Invented Languages" says that the CLL is one of= the most complete grammatical descriptions of any constructed language. Ca= lling it "The Red Book" stems from the colour of the cover, where= as "The Codex Woldemar" which is just an overly fancy way of refe= rring to it, comes from its author's name, John Woldemar Cowan.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

On 11 December 2012 10:39, Annie <park.annie@asb.gaggle.n= et> wrote:
=
what is the red book?





*** This Email was sent by a student= at School for the Blind.

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--e89a8f3bb01d36185804d0afcab1--