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Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 23:19:34 +0100
From: selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Possessives
References: <3AD9ACF2-9875-4BC8-86C1-65D29ADB8226@asb.gaggle.net> <CAAQ0imMQmXg0aD30tt_ON8Qs4rnb50ygiHjV9NC2Yq4Wja7O8g@mail.gmail.com> <cee7b263-3048-4501-a79b-39c57ed763e6@m13g2000vbd.googlegroups.com> <CAMKwHj1FaZVFF5Xvk3cxhhGDY9m48aturyU5wT2Jy8US9VXU6Q@mail.gmail.com> <F3F5C9A5-E9FC-4368-AE1C-7852DF3E86C7@asb.gaggle.net> <CAAQ0imP7zfvTXUd-fprzMuUoxtXZCCct943NiVMze2ZLCQzepQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAKOEKkS7xRKYAFLHN0Ep340qy-YjOo_eTrz1fctHSE_pjWCXpw@mail.gmail.com> <B5221E1C-2415-41CB-982E-35C929096A8D@asb.gaggle.net> <CAAQ0imPuN+UB351McAyLiZMQuH_2qPvni8Kd9rZYEDnBKYUCCQ@mail.gmail.com> <FCA2C013-AD91-4695-9CFC-A1A23B3FCB7C@asb.gaggle.net> <CAAQ0imM9mDYWHeVZie1xm2z7EskQOj4QbiKQkgLvF3tefe81tg@mail.gmail.com> <32445653-87F5-45CD-8644-AC150EC68E8F@asb.gaggle.net> <CAKOEKkQNOC4pynvWBtsXow7JoOvVcbxxXpGadNCxYHokUn9kHw@mail.gmail.com> <CAOQ8VDUAUrib3X69ij2zdkHjtJt9iXPHMoB65gO_bXn=C=GsEQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAKOEKkRw5Tt23oi8poqvEyc8rB3zo1gVdZp4gsdk6dRFYLRovw@mail.gmail.com>
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 Content preview:  la tsani cu retsku di'e > I'm joking far more than I'm serious
    in saying this, but considering > that {lo djine} is a constant, wouldn't
    {la .djan. e la .djim. dunda > lo djine la .meris.} mean that they each gave
    her *the same* ring :P ? [...] 
 
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la tsani cu retsku di'e
 > I'm joking far more than I'm serious in saying this, but considering
 > that {lo djine} is a constant, wouldn't {la .djan. e la .djim. dunda 
 > lo djine la .meris.} mean that they each gave her *the same* ring :P ?

la gejyspa cu spusku di'e
>    Yes, I believe it would, although I don't  know if xorlo affects
> that.  I didn't mean to say it wouldn't.  The second sentence would be
> one instance of giving (e.g they presented it to her together).  But the
> first sentence (to me) would still imply they both gave her a particular
> ring (since it's only specified once), but they might have given it to
> her at different times.

xorlo does and doesn't affect this. Prior to xorlo, lo djine = su'o lo 
djine (with old-lo) = "at least one of all the rings there are".

With old-lo:
(1) la djan e la djim cu dunda [su'o] lo djine la meris

The ".e" has scope over "su'o", so both John and Jim give at least one 
ring to Mary. It doesn't say that they give the same ring (and they 
probably don't).

If you wanted both of them to give Mary the same ring, you'd have to 
move the PA lo djine in front of the ".e" to fix the scope:

(2) pa da poi djine zo'u la djan e la djim cu dunda da la meris
     "There exists [exactly] one ring, such that both John and jim give 
it to Mary."

xorlo affects this in that it removes default quantifiers from all sumti 
(except da), which means scope no longer plays a role when using a 
description like "lo djine".
The vagueness remains in the xorlo version, however; It is not specified 
if they both give the same ring to Mary or not in:

(3) la djan e la djim cu dunda lo djine la meris

All it says that they give a ring.

Again, a quantifier with scope over the ".e" can be introduced to have 
both of them give the same ring to Mary as in (2).

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

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