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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Special reference, underspecified
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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The first version is wrong; that says "there exists exactly one yellow
haired thing which ..." (Rather, there is a very slightly less
controversial version that I tend to subscribe to: "there is exactly one
yellow-haired thing that is at all possible to come up in discussion which
..." The point is that the default universe of discourse should be the *
universe* of discourse, there shouldn't be anything that be reasonably
anticipated to come up in conversation that isn't actually in it.)

If you use su'o instead it's not terrible, but really {da} constructs when
you don't want nice sharp precision tend to be undesirable, in my
experience.

At any rate, here I'd probably say {lo se ke pelxu kerfa}. {le} might also
be appropriate in this context, but I doubt I'd use it. That said, I think
more likely the structure of the discussion would be different among fluent
in-real-life Lojban speakers. (Few of these exist; I, for example, am
pretty quick on IRC, but am almost completely helpless when it comes to
spatial things.) I'd expect a lot of up-front establishment of pronouns,
for example.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 10:01 AM, neizyn. <sjacket@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> coi
>> .i mi'e neizyn.
>>
>> Sorry, I'm just a beginnger! but I was wondering about a special
>> situation.
>> Suppose there's a group of girls with one guy; I'm talking to one of the
>> girls, and I make a statement referring to the guy without unambiguously
>> referring to him by name or other reference. This is because he's the only
>> person in the group like that. Say he's blonde. Is there a way I can say
>> that "someone is blond" oooooor 'blonde exists/obtains such that x is
>> blonde' ? Better yet, could I use that with some kind of reference?
>>
>
> {pa pelxre} == {pa da poi pelkre} => "one X which-is golden-haired"
> {pa lo prenu poi pelxre} => "A singular person which-is blonde"
> {lo pelxre prenu} => "One or more blonde type-of person"
> {ko'a goi (any of the above)} => "It-1, which-is what we will call {any of
> the above)"
>
> I'm sure there's other ways to do it as well, but those are the most
> obvious, to me at any rate.
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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The first version is wrong; that says &quot;there exists exactly one yellow=
 haired thing which ...&quot; (Rather, there is a very slightly less contro=
versial version that I tend to subscribe to: &quot;there is exactly one yel=
low-haired thing that is at all possible to come up in discussion which ...=
&quot; The point is that the default universe of discourse should be the <i=
>universe</i> of discourse, there shouldn&#39;t be anything that be reasona=
bly anticipated to come up in conversation that isn&#39;t actually in it.) =
<br>
<br>If you use su&#39;o instead it&#39;s not terrible, but really {da} cons=
tructs when you don&#39;t want nice sharp precision tend to be undesirable,=
 in my experience. <br><br>At any rate, here I&#39;d probably say {lo se ke=
 pelxu kerfa}. {le} might also be appropriate in this context, but I doubt =
I&#39;d use it. That said, I think more likely the structure of the discuss=
ion would be different among fluent in-real-life Lojban speakers. (Few of t=
hese exist; I, for example, am pretty quick on IRC, but am almost completel=
y helpless when it comes to spatial things.) I&#39;d expect a lot of up-fro=
nt establishment of pronouns, for example. <br>
<br>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Jan 2, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Jonathan Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im"=
>On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 10:01 AM, neizyn. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:sjacket@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sjacket@gmail.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>coi</div><div>.i mi&#39;e neizyn.</div><div>=A0</div><div>Sorry, I&#39=
;m just a beginnger! but I was wondering about a special situation.</div><d=
iv>Suppose there&#39;s a group of girls with one guy; I&#39;m talking to on=
e of the girls, and I make a statement referring to the guy without unambig=
uously referring to him by name or other reference. This is because he&#39;=
s the only person in the group like that. Say he&#39;s blonde. Is there a w=
ay=A0I can say that &quot;someone is blond&quot; oooooor &#39;blonde exists=
/obtains such that x is blonde&#39; ? Better yet, could I use that with som=
e kind of reference?=A0 </div>

</blockquote></div><div><br>{pa pelxre} =3D=3D {pa da poi pelkre} =3D&gt; &=
quot;one X which-is golden-haired&quot;<br>{pa lo prenu poi pelxre} =3D&gt;=
 &quot;A singular person which-is blonde&quot;<br>{lo pelxre prenu} =3D&gt;=
 &quot;One or more blonde type-of person&quot;<br>

{ko&#39;a goi (any of the above)} =3D&gt; &quot;It-1, which-is what we will=
 call {any of the above)&quot;<br><br>I&#39;m sure there&#39;s other ways t=
o do it as well, but those are the most obvious, to me at any rate.<span cl=
ass=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
</font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
</font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <=
br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be den=
pa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am=
 your father. :D )</font></span><div class=3D"im HOEnZb">
<br>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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