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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Special reference, underspecified
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

> The first version is wrong; that says "there exists exactly one yellow
> haired thing which ..." (Rather, there is a very slightly less
> controversial version that I tend to subscribe to: "there is exactly one
> yellow-haired thing that is at all possible to come up in discussion which
> ..." The point is that the default universe of discourse should be the *
> universe* of discourse, there shouldn't be anything that be reasonably
> anticipated to come up in conversation that isn't actually in it.)
>

I subscribe to the idea that the "universe of discourse" is bound by the
context that discourse is in, mainly because forcing PA GISMU to mean that
there is exactly PA things that GISMU makes the construct pretty much
useless, seeing as statements like that are pretty much always incorrect.
But this isn't the list to talk about thee issues, being the beginner's
thread and all.


> If you use su'o instead it's not terrible, but really {da} constructs when
> you don't want nice sharp precision tend to be undesirable, in my
> experience.
>
> At any rate, here I'd probably say {lo se ke pelxu kerfa}. {le} might also
> be appropriate in this context, but I doubt I'd use it. That said, I think
> more likely the structure of the discussion would be different among fluent
> in-real-life Lojban speakers. (Few of these exist; I, for example, am
> pretty quick on IRC, but am almost completely helpless when it comes to
> spatial things.) I'd expect a lot of up-front establishment of pronouns,
> for example.
>
> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
>
> On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 10:01 AM, neizyn. <sjacket@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> coi
>>> .i mi'e neizyn.
>>>
>>> Sorry, I'm just a beginnger! but I was wondering about a special
>>> situation.
>>> Suppose there's a group of girls with one guy; I'm talking to one of the
>>> girls, and I make a statement referring to the guy without unambiguously
>>> referring to him by name or other reference. This is because he's the only
>>> person in the group like that. Say he's blonde. Is there a way I can say
>>> that "someone is blond" oooooor 'blonde exists/obtains such that x is
>>> blonde' ? Better yet, could I use that with some kind of reference?
>>>
>>
>> {pa pelxre} == {pa da poi pelkre} => "one X which-is golden-haired"
>> {pa lo prenu poi pelxre} => "A singular person which-is blonde"
>> {lo pelxre prenu} => "One or more blonde type-of person"
>> {ko'a goi (any of the above)} => "It-1, which-is what we will call {any
>> of the above)"
>>
>> I'm sure there's other ways to do it as well, but those are the most
>> obvious, to me at any rate.
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>
>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>
>>  --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>>
>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>



-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--e89a8fb1ebc28abe4304d26406f1
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Ian John=
son <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">blindbravado@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">
The first version is wrong; that says &quot;there exists exactly one yellow=
 haired thing which ...&quot; (Rather, there is a very slightly less contro=
versial version that I tend to subscribe to: &quot;there is exactly one yel=
low-haired thing that is at all possible to come up in discussion which ...=
&quot; The point is that the default universe of discourse should be the <i=
>universe</i> of discourse, there shouldn&#39;t be anything that be reasona=
bly anticipated to come up in conversation that isn&#39;t actually in it.) =
<br>
</blockquote><div><br>I subscribe to the idea that the &quot;universe of di=
scourse&quot; is bound by the context that discourse is in, mainly because =
forcing PA GISMU to mean that there is exactly PA things that GISMU makes t=
he construct pretty much useless, seeing as statements like that are pretty=
 much always incorrect. But this isn&#39;t the list to talk about thee issu=
es, being the beginner&#39;s thread and all.<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
If you use su&#39;o instead it&#39;s not terrible, but really {da} construc=
ts when you don&#39;t want nice sharp precision tend to be undesirable, in =
my experience. <br><br>At any rate, here I&#39;d probably say {lo se ke pel=
xu kerfa}. {le} might also be appropriate in this context, but I doubt I&#3=
9;d use it. That said, I think more likely the structure of the discussion =
would be different among fluent in-real-life Lojban speakers. (Few of these=
 exist; I, for example, am pretty quick on IRC, but am almost completely he=
lpless when it comes to spatial things.) I&#39;d expect a lot of up-front e=
stablishment of pronouns, for example. <br>

<br>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
><div class=3D"h5">On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Jonathan Jones <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 10:01 AM, neizyn. <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sjacket@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sjacket=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>coi</div><div>.i mi&#39;e neizyn.</div><div>=A0</div><div>Sorry, I&#39=
;m just a beginnger! but I was wondering about a special situation.</div><d=
iv>Suppose there&#39;s a group of girls with one guy; I&#39;m talking to on=
e of the girls, and I make a statement referring to the guy without unambig=
uously referring to him by name or other reference. This is because he&#39;=
s the only person in the group like that. Say he&#39;s blonde. Is there a w=
ay=A0I can say that &quot;someone is blond&quot; oooooor &#39;blonde exists=
/obtains such that x is blonde&#39; ? Better yet, could I use that with som=
e kind of reference?=A0 </div>


</blockquote></div><div><br>{pa pelxre} =3D=3D {pa da poi pelkre} =3D&gt; &=
quot;one X which-is golden-haired&quot;<br>{pa lo prenu poi pelxre} =3D&gt;=
 &quot;A singular person which-is blonde&quot;<br>{lo pelxre prenu} =3D&gt;=
 &quot;One or more blonde type-of person&quot;<br>


{ko&#39;a goi (any of the above)} =3D&gt; &quot;It-1, which-is what we will=
 call {any of the above)&quot;<br><br>I&#39;m sure there&#39;s other ways t=
o do it as well, but those are the most obvious, to me at any rate.<span><f=
ont color=3D"#888888"><br>

</font></span></div><span><font color=3D"#888888">
</font></span></div><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#3=
9;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk.=
 mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D =
)</font></span></div>
</div><div>
<br><div class=3D"im">

<p></p>

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</div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><div class=3D"im HOEnZb">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l=
uk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. =
:D )<br>

<p></p>

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/>
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