Received: from mail-gg0-f185.google.com ([209.85.161.185]:33895) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TuImz-0004YW-Bp; Sun, 13 Jan 2013 00:19:42 -0800 Received: by mail-gg0-f185.google.com with SMTP id q6sf1864037ggc.22 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2013 00:19:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=k5CNr5IoJUr+6S72kMJ/PQZkLhDg9FtvBejGsh5v/Qk=; b=c8DPchy3Bf28YmHUnDnL12dDKlAuXCG4MLp9kVA7Y7pEIfQOI/0f31kiJQ8Jb6RUx1 n8IrlTuyCcuoLItovQVw8oGxapVLVre4ZdZDKZVgSKLuuhze0QSudLJXq7WwodgfOIXp qHVmVXVVIQmuKZD2y5d/DzkvmbyKXQa3/mTo4N3Tq8fa+u8DxQMdIUlOn90cjtfmye6P DbTsK9+JeStN4zhRNyigoXaO72ihS6zLqKy5cLHd+L5e7/EOtfO6k1St70tUcvhV6K8J lZtD+zqi/TymKJapq/F5+mH5gnHGIYJhddo8TF0sjY5mqoNQtBBCjACPnPE9pxWyp+el GUFg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=k5CNr5IoJUr+6S72kMJ/PQZkLhDg9FtvBejGsh5v/Qk=; b=jL8f2njHXHGqQ22o6/vKJS7DQ6oSBSLmEpLWaVdotk0LZrTHg2r4+4HFTQv+NZcP4e czD7XwO+akJskKnt4F5kai10gNJ1UrhgIhXlwJ6vaWtKd1ymkN3uhOYi3Iazlz/rgkGW X71GNHP7oyzE6DjGBJCLCqmaEwnzWl0ThFiJKvYUFvPNuOnRNEI3IDE7p0amXiaTFGzU dXtZvAtj1mW0szEaTzy9LFWE6mRhMzhn8QXcqhiOAl13LhivN0in8VYNeWlARBETId9r rLhj0SdgHgeICVE4/LqgxBiqBvJUgEWPp3IiUXAK7s+7S5/dEcORXs8uvTjDNMyzkJXf vq6Q== X-Received: by 10.49.48.41 with SMTP id i9mr14700235qen.36.1358065166978; Sun, 13 Jan 2013 00:19:26 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.16.37 with SMTP id c5ls2595840qed.80.gmail; Sun, 13 Jan 2013 00:19:25 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.58.49.131 with SMTP id u3mr35729476ven.16.1358065165669; Sun, 13 Jan 2013 00:19:25 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.58.49.131 with SMTP id u3mr35729475ven.16.1358065165647; Sun, 13 Jan 2013 00:19:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-f182.google.com (mail-vc0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h20si1482676vdg.3.2013.01.13.00.19.25 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 13 Jan 2013 00:19:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.182; Received: by mail-vc0-f182.google.com with SMTP id fy27so2692355vcb.13 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2013 00:19:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.44.74 with SMTP id c10mr102283456vem.10.1358065165486; Sun, 13 Jan 2013 00:19:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.13.197 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Jan 2013 00:19:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <220A81A2-EC08-4197-BC63-F55B19A0C6BB@asb.gaggle.net> <40DF8C3E-8408-43BC-AFE1-AC66E3236E5A@asb.gaggle.net> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 03:19:25 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: APE: Lojban haiku From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013cc408c54abd04d3272f82 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e013cc408c54abd04d3272f82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 This depends significantly on the UI in question, as the BPFK pages on this subject make clear. The most important thing that makes UI truth-functionally relevant is whether an attitudinal is realis or irrealis. {ui} is realis; when you say {broda ui} you still claim {broda} and are saying you're happy about it. {.a'o} is irrealis; when you say {broda .a'o} you don't claim {broda}, you say you hope that {broda} happens without saying whether it does. Note that unlike in the ma'oste, as I recall every UI is explicitly described as realis/irrealis on their BPFK page, perhaps with some exceptions in the form of obviously-realis words like {ui}. mi'e la latro'a mu'o On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Ross Ogilvie wrote: > >> "difficult to imagine" is one assertion >> The other one is first asserting that it is being imagined, and then also >> saying you feeling that the imagining is difficult. >> > No. UI do not assert anything. They merely express the attitude of the > speaker. This is why they are called "attitudinals". Their purpose is to > easily convey the current emotional mindset of the speaker. > > >> On 13/01/2013 12:48 PM, "Annie" wrote: >> >>> what exactly is the difference between difficult to imagine and the >>> imagining being difficult? >>> >>> Sent from my iPod >>> >>> On Jan 12, 2013, at 5:05 AM, Ross Ogilvie >>> wrote: >>> >>> It's more about the sentence structure and assertion. When you say >>> "difficult to imagine", the main assertion is about the difficulty. In the >>> sentence {lo si'o ciska lo ro fa'oma'o cu xanri} the main assertion (the >>> selbri) is about imagining (xanri). Adding fu'inai after xanri is like >>> huffing to indicate that you find the imaging is difficult. >>> >>> mu'o mi'e ros >>> >>> On 12 January 2013 09:24, Annie wrote: >>> >>>> e >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *** This Email was sent by a student at School for the Blind. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --089e013cc408c54abd04d3272f82 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This depends significantly on the UI in question, as the BPFK pages on this= subject make clear. The most important thing that makes UI truth-functiona= lly relevant is whether an attitudinal is realis or irrealis. {ui} is reali= s; when you say {broda ui} you still claim {broda} and are saying you'r= e happy about it. {.a'o} is irrealis; when you say {broda .a'o} you= don't claim {broda}, you say you hope that {broda} happens without say= ing whether it does.

Note that unlike in the ma'oste, as I recall every UI is= explicitly described as realis/irrealis on their BPFK page, perhaps with s= ome exceptions in the form of obviously-realis words like {ui}.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail= .com> wrote:
On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Ross Ogilvie <ross@rossogilvie.id.a= u> wrote:

"difficult to imagine" is one assertion
The other one is first asserting that it is being imagined, and then also s= aying you feeling that the imagining is difficult.

<= div>No. UI do not assert anything. They merely express the attitude of the = speaker. This is why they are called "attitudinals". Their purpos= e is to easily convey the current emotional mindset of the speaker.
=A0
On 13/01/2013 12:48 PM, "Annie" <park.annie@asb= .gaggle.net> wrote:
what exactly is the difference between difficult to = imagine and the imagining being difficult?

Sent from my iPod

On Jan 12, 2013, at 5:05 AM, Ross Ogilvie <ross@rossogilvie.id.au> wrote:=

It's more about the sentence structure and assertion. When yo= u say "difficult to imagine", the main assertion is about the dif= ficulty. In the sentence {lo si'o ciska lo ro fa'oma'o cu xanri= } the main assertion (the selbri) is about imagining (xanri). Adding fu'= ;inai after xanri is like huffing to indicate that you find the imaging is = difficult.

mu'o mi'e ros

On 12 January 2013 09:24, Annie <park.annie@asb.gaggle.ne= t> wrote:
e


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*** This Email was sent by a s= tudent at School for the Blind.

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai k= o cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to t= he Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

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